Hand stich vs Machine Pros and Cons?

opiy

opiy

Well-Known Member
I was curious about this. When I read a description of someones sheath most of the time they list it as a hand stitched leather sheath. Now I have seen the Tipman Boss manual stitcher and wonder if there is any reason a person would choose the hand stitching over the manual machine. Is there a quality to one over the other? Is it simply because the machine is actually pretty dang costly? To me it would seem the machine would have a more consistent pattern in the stitch over doing it by hand.

Can using the machine since it is a manual operation still be considered as hand stitched?

Thanks
 
There are a few makers out there that claim to have hand stitched sheaths that are actually done on a machine, but they say so because their hands are on the sheath at the time of stitching. Using a BOSS doesn't denote hand stitching either, but a different method. Hand stitching involves no sewing machines.
 
Most who stitch by hand use two threads and each stitch is locked. If you break a stitch, it won't unravel. On the other hand, you never see a machine stitched sheath unravel so it's really a moot point. The main thing is the cost at $1500-$2500 for a good stitching machine. If you do a lot of sheaths it makes sense just in time saved. It takes me at least an hour to do what the machine can do in 30 seconds.
 
To me it would seem the machine would have a more consistent pattern in the stitch over doing it by hand.
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Depends on who does the handstitching, but how good a machine stitches has been compared to the best handstitching for low these many years - the best hand stitching will look like a machine did it, but few machines and their users can match the best hand stitching . While definitly faster a sewing machine is not a panacea for poor handstitching and can have a pretty good learning curve.

On the other hand, you never see a machine stitched sheath unravel so it's really a moot point.
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Depends on the machine - most modern leather sewing machines or leather stitchers (there is a difference in the two in how they work - the latter is technically a needle and awl machine like the Union Lock Stitch or Campbells and allows one to use linen or hemp thread) make a good quality lock stitch than can be tough to unravel, but not all machines are created equal and I have seen more than my fair share of unraveled machine stitching in the last 50 years of doing repairs as well as making new goods. And yes cost can be a big factor - a good sewing machine will run $1,200.00 - $6,000.00 new and a good stitcher will run $3,000.00 - $8,000.00 new/rebuilt. What machine you use is all dependent on your needs - few folks can or do make a living making only knife sheaths so the bigger/more costly machines may be required. And if you do mostly historical pieces like I do then the stitcher is necessary in order to sew using linen thread and that's a hefty chunk of change.

Hand stitching does take longer, but then again due to the perception that hand stitching is something "special" (for varied reasons and dependent on the customer base) one can often charge more when hand stitched.

And as leatherman noted using a sewing machine is not and IMO should not be considered hand sewing.........

With respect -
Chuck who just finshed up hand sewing two size 39 full lined belts at six stitches per inch in a litte over 3 hours and I'm not the fastest hand stitcher in the world and making leather goods is my business, but then again I make only high end period pieces these days...............
 
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I've never used a machine to stitch sheaths, but having seen a number of sheaths that were machine stitched,.I have to wonder if with a machine, it's possible to have the stitching lay in a groove, so that the stitching stays below the surface of the leather? I have to admit that building sheaths is the one part of knifemaking that I simply detest. I've tried a number of times to farm out sheaths, and for various reasons have always been dissatisfied with the results, so I have resolved to just make them myself. Over the years it's become less tedious for me. In many cases the sheaths that I provide for my knives has been the "deal clincher" in a knife sale.
I've always believed that a sheath should be as nice and well done as the knife that goes into it, and just have not found that when someone else builds a sheath for one of my knives. Maybe it's me being too anal about the sole authorship thing, but in my mind it somehow cheapens the overall package when a knifemaker offers either a knife without a sheath, or the quality of the sheath made by someone else does not "match" the knife...not sure how to describe it, but it's always very obvious to me when I see a higher end knife, paired with a sheath that was not made by the maker.....although the sheath might be well made and beautiful, all too often it simply does not look like it belongs with that particular knife....does that make any sense?

I got off topic a bit there, so back on point, I think that IF a machine can produce the same level of quality in stitching as can be achieved by hand, AND the capability exists to ensure the stitching lays below the surface of the leather, then I say it's a viable method. I suppose one reason I still hand stitch is that the value to cost ratio of acquiring/using a machine isn't there for me....at least NOT YET! :)
 
Interesting to hear you say that you dislike making the sheaths... I would say that while learning both now, I enjoy the leather work more than the knife work...

Btw, buying a machine is not an option for me, so all by hand it is... Single needle, down and back Box Stitches at 6/inch.
 
EdCaffreyMS said:
I've never used a machine to stitch sheaths, but having seen a number of sheaths that were machine stitched,.I have to wonder if with a machine, it's possible to have the stitching lay in a groove, so that the stitching stays below the surface of the leather? I have to admit that building sheaths is the one part of knifemaking that I simply detest. I've tried a number of times to farm out sheaths, and for various reasons have always been dissatisfied with the results, so I have resolved to just make them myself. Over the years it's become less tedious for me. In many cases the sheaths that I provide for my knives has been the "deal clincher" in a knife sale.
I've always believed that a sheath should be as nice and well done as the knife that goes into it, and just have not found that when someone else builds a sheath for one of my knives. Maybe it's me being too anal about the sole authorship thing, but in my mind it somehow cheapens the overall package when a knifemaker offers either a knife without a sheath, or the quality of the sheath made by someone else does not "match" the knife...not sure how to describe it, but it's always very obvious to me when I see a higher end knife, paired with a sheath that was not made by the maker.....although the sheath might be well made and beautiful, all too often it simply does not look like it belongs with that particular knife....does that make any sense?

I got off topic a bit there, so back on point, I think that IF a machine can produce the same level of quality in stitching as can be achieved by hand, AND the capability exists to ensure the stitching lays below the surface of the leather, then I say it's a viable method. I suppose one reason I still hand stitch is that the value to cost ratio of acquiring/using a machine isn't there for me....at least NOT YET! :)
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I understand what you mean with the sheath and knife combo qualities.

Ed in the Tippmann video, they layed the stitch below the surface. The person just grooved the leather then stitched in it. Its close to the very end of the clip. http://www.tippmannindustrial.com/video.php?image=TheBoss&osCsid=b25501cbaa7593d21617df1656b94334

It seems just the cost of buying the machine is a big factor in doing it by hand.

Would you guys feel less likely to buy a sheath or knife combo knowing the leather work was done with a manual sewing machine over entirely hand done?

Thanks for the input.
 
I have to wonder if with a machine, it's possible to have the stitching lay in a groove, so that the stitching stays below the surface of the leather?
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Yes - as noted you can pre-groove by hand or there is at least one sewing machine (IIRC the Adler or Ferdco or maybe Campbell-Randall?) that has a groover attachment that grooves as you sew.

Would you guys feel less likely to buy a sheath or knife combo knowing the leather work was done with a manual sewing machine over entirely hand done?
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I can only speak for myself, but it's the quality of the end product that counts most not the method - like whether a knife is forged or ground. Or buy a handsewn sheath from someone like me or Dave Cole or a machine sewn sheath from Paul Long or Sandy Morrisey - all are top line just different methods.
Also what type sheath would be a consideration - most "historic" sheaths should be handsewn using linen or hemp thread (with exceptions as noted above) and that would matter to me, but a "modern" hunter or tactical would make no difference to me in so far as construction method as long as the quality is there........
 
All stitching is not equal regardless of hand or machine but I will say if I have to take something apart in most cases I would rather it been sewn with a modern sewing machine than by hand. Once you cut the thread it's not all that hard to get the machine stitching to come out. Hand saddle stitch is another story, it's a pretty good chore getting it apart because you have to cut nearly every stitch.

A Tippman boss is manually operated but still makes the same style stitch as the other sewing machines. A Union Lockstitch makes the closes looking stitch to hand that I have seen but even though it is needle and awl it is not the same as hand stitching. Only hand stitching is hand stitching.

I use both methods depending on the product. Many of my modern hunting sheaths or other leather projects that don't matter are done on a sewing machine. My period gunleather is all hand stitched with linen thread to be 19th century correct. Some of my sheaths I also hand stitch whether it be for correctness, looks or both.
 
My period gunleather is all hand stitched with linen thread to be 19th century correct.
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Actually Cliff much of the 1880's and later leather gear was machine sewn albeit with needle and awl stitchers using linen or hemp thread (Campbell-Randall started making leather stitchers in the 1880's), especially that made by the big boys such as Heiser, Meanea, et al so both machine and hand sewn may be correct dependent on time period. Often some pieces were a combo - for instance the 1890's era Meanea holster pictured on the cover of Packing Iron has a machine sewn main seam and the toe plug (now missing) was handsewn......
 
Chuck is right, I meant the linen thread to be correct and you must either hand sew it or use a stitcher designed for it. Most if not all of the original Meanea late 1880's and later holsters I've seen were actually machine sewn so in order to be really period on a later Cheyenne style holster one needs a needle and awl stitcher for the main seem.

Chuck, do you know how many threads per inch they were using on some of the machine stitched back then? It is amazing how close the stitches look on them. 6 or 7 seams about right for the hand stitching but the machine part looks closer. Meanea and those guys were good, the toe plugs are works of art. I can't afford them but have to admire them when I see them at shows.

I'd love to have either a Union Lockstitch or Campbell. I still think I would hand stitch a lot of my holsters because of the toe plug but those money belts would sure be nice to do on a stitcher.
 
I have three machines, a couple big stitchers and a smaller straight needle machines. All three are great machines when tuned right. That being said I'd have to say I'd most likely not have any if I just made sheaths. My other leather work has and continues to pay for the machines not sheaths or gun leather. I sometimes hand sew a sheath, sometimes use a machine. Very often I'll use both on the same sheath.

For me it comes down to function first, then I'll try to make the sheath as clean and crisp as possible without losing fuction. The knife and customer dictate what I'll go with, sometimes without ever saying a word. Some of my favorite sheaths are plain, machine stitched super fuctional sheathes that I know from personal experience will outlast the blades they are made for under hard use. The other half of my favorite sheaths are plain, and hand stitched.

Very good thread with great replys by all.
 
Cliff Fendley said:
Chuck, do you know how many threads per inch they were using on some of the machine stitched back then? It is amazing how close the stitches look on them. 6 or 7 seams about right for the hand stitching but the machine part looks closer. Meanea and those guys were good, the toe plugs are works of art. I can't afford them but have to admire them when I see them at shows.

I'd love to have either a Union Lockstitch or Campbell. I still think I would hand stitch a lot of my holsters because of the toe plug but those money belts would sure be nice to do on a stitcher.
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Cliff - most pre-1900 originals are in fact stitched at 8-12 SPI whether machine or hand using 3 or 4 cord normally rather than the 5-6 cord so often used today. Thos guys were real proud fo their stitching. As to toe plugs I find than easier to do than the plain sewn toes - once you get the knack to doing them anyway.
And yep a machine would be real nice for belts and chaps ---- but at $4500.00 plus......
 
Thanks for that info Chuck, I thought it also looked like smaller thread than we normally use. They must have used a very tiny awl.

I agree after getting the hang I don't mind doing toe plugs any more than a sewn toe but I struggled getting the hang of it.

Whenever I get seriously thinking about a stitcher I think about how many belts that is to get to that 4500+bucks.:les::confused2:
 
Great info Dogs, now all I have to do is google about half of what you all said so I really understand. One question, I have read that the new Tippman Boss machine can't compare with the old ones. True or false. Why.
 
shakie said:
Great info Dogs, now all I have to do is google about half of what you all said so I really understand. One question, I have read that the new Tippman Boss machine can't compare with the old ones. True or false. Why.
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I haven't heard that before maybe someone can answer soon.
 
The new ones have an aluminum frame where the old ones are cast iron. Many claim the older ones are more ridged and do a better job. I have only used one briefly so I can't tell you first hand but know the old iron frame ones are what people look for when buying one.
 
Cliff Fendley said:
The new ones have an aluminum frame where the old ones are cast iron. Many claim the older ones are more ridged and do a better job. I have only used one briefly so I can't tell you first hand but know the old iron frame ones are what people look for when buying one.
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Ah yes, the old ones are better. Even leather stitchers......
 
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