Hamon Quandry ????

Gahagan

Gahagan

Well-Known Member
Ok I am perplexed. I am trying to get a hamon on some knives but it is not working very well. I have switched over to 1075 from normal w2 or 1095. I am applying the clay as usual but getting different results.
Here is how I am applying the clay


Normally I would get a hamon close to what I lay out slightly larger but now I am getting only the bottom 1/4 of the blade. I f you look at the top blade you can see the hamon from the first attempt with the same layout. Please provide me some insight into 1075. Do I need alot less area coverage and less alot less clay? How many times can I retry before I get major grain growth? I really am lost with this steel.
 
Don't sweat the grain growth issue from a redo, I call grain growth the bladesmith's bogeyman in that we lose way too much sleep over a monster that we fear is always there, but if we educate ourselves we find that what is really under the bed is just a few dust bunnies.:3: The real monsters are hiding in the closet and are called stress and decarb, you can only reheat that blade repeatedly so long as you can keep the carbon content in it, and fight the increasing tendency to warp (which you could cure with some stress relieving, but that would only give you more decarb problems:biggrin:.

What is your pre-quench thermal history? It can have profound affects on hamon creation. The blade started in a fully annealed condition you will find that your second quench will have a different behavior from your first. Going into the hardening from a finer structure will get you more solution but could also lower the hardenability. The lower the hardenability the more powerful your clay will be in pushing back the hardening. To keep the line right next to your clay you will want a VERY fast oil. Most of the guys using oil to produce hamons, that I find impressive, like Parks #50, and I have always gotten the best results with it. Your thin 1/4" line looks like what one would get from a slower oil.

The 1075 that NJ Steel Baron is one of the most responsive steels I have used for hamon, and I use it whenever I have to demonstrate the technique in order to look like I really know what I am doing.

Clay formulation is not extremely critical but it does have to stay on and insulate sufficiently. I personally prefer black furnace cement for its excellent adhesion and a consistency that allows it to "peak" for nice fine ashi lines, it also displayed better insulation qualities than other refractories in my tests.

Keep the temp at around 1475F and don't over-soak.
 
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How long would you consider over soaking regarding say 1095/W2/W1 ? Would 10 min soak seem like a good start ?
 
Mark Andrews said:
How long would you consider over soaking regarding say 1095/W2/W1 ? Would 10 min soak seem like a good start ?
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These techniques are a very good example of how we must be aware that almost all technologies connected to working steel have come a long ways in the past millennium but much of bladesmithing is still an ancient art, not always in-synch with those changes. Many modern bladesmiths are now realizing the benefits of working modern alloys with up to date tools and todays metallurgical knowledge, but making hamons is an ancient technique that is actually at odds with many of the properties built right into modern steel, (you don’t see many choji hamons in O-1;)).

When pursuing ancient techniques the greatest success can often be found in matching your tools and materials to them, so the closer you can get to the simple iron/carbon alloys used back then the better the fit will be. Soaking can almost always be a good thing with any modern steel but even our simplest modern alloy has extra elements that change things. Ancient steels would fall under the modern industrial classification (actually a bit old now) of “coarse grained” in that they lack the fine particles added during the killing process, and alloying as well, to keep grain growth in check once all the iron-carbide is dissolved. With ancient steel grain growth was not a bogeyman it was a real monster waiting in the corner to pounce at any opportunity (we really don’t know how spoiled we are with our modern steels). In the days before alloying, full solution came quick and cooling had to be fast. This is why the simplest of today’s steel work best for this ancient technique. Over-soaking increases hardenability and allows the hardening to ignore the clay and go under it, farther up the blade than intended.

I have gotten the best results using steels that do not need soaking and going with no soak at all using just a forge, like in the old days. Just move it in and out of a forge until the color is even and then quench, not surprisingly, just like you see the old swordsmiths do it. When all the factors come together, very fine clay ashi lines that are like 1/8” wide and 1/8” tall will very cleanly guide the hamon. I should mention that hamons are not my thing and I rarely use them anymore, but when an organization like the ABS hangs the title of master on you, and then asks you to teach others, it is a good idea to be able to put your money where your mouth is.
 
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Thanks for the advice! I rehted it and used salt brine and now I have some of the most active hamons I have ever done. I guess 1075 does not like canola oil.
 
Gahagan said:
Thanks for the advice! I rehted it and used salt brine and now I have some of the most active hamons I have ever done. I guess 1075 does not like canola oil.
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How did you mix your salt brine? Wanting to try it out myself. Any help would be appreciated

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4 1/2 gallons of water.
5 lbs salt
32 oz dawn dish soap the blue stuff
8 oz shaklee basic 1 or jet dry.
the recipe can be halved if needed. Be sure to wash the blades in fresh water well as soon as posable after quenching or they will rust like crazy.

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buckaroo said:
4 1/2 gallons of water.
5 lbs salt
32 oz dawn dish soap the blue stuff
8 oz shaklee basic 1 or jet dry.
the recipe can be halved if needed. Be sure to wash the blades in fresh water well as soon as posable after quenching or they will rust like crazy.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Thanks Buckaroo! I will give it a shot. I have some of Aldo's 1095 and wanted to try it out and see if I can get lots of activity out of it. My quench oil just isn't fast enough to get what I'm looking for. It's the 11 sec oil from McMaster Carr. It does ok, but I been wanting to try brine for awhile. Thanks!

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