Garbage steel

I've done a couple CuMai blades and as long as the Copper is not on the cutting edge it shouldn't be a problem. I also did my Homework on the Copper to steel bond the shear on that bond (I looked for the article and couldn't find it) is around 70,000 PSI!! These are hand knives 1 is a hunting knife that has some defects on the blade (not selling its mine for life) and the other is a friction folder. For me to hit 70,000 psi sheer on the blade of either knife would be a feat! I really like the affect, it was something different and a challenge to me! That's what I consider a lot of this knife building to be, a "PERSONAL CHALLENGE". That's how we evolve and become better makers! In a nutshell just make what you like and challenge yourself to 1 up every knife you do! At the very least try and learn something from each build, whether your using repurposed material or known!
 
I don't like that people assume a forged knife is always better than a stock removal knife! People seem to look down on stock removal, even though I can use a huge variety of steels and have them heat treated properly and have a more consistent quality with less chances of micro cracks or huge grain that often comes from recycled materials or forging. Forging is hard and not everyone does it properly 100% of the time!

San Mai looks awesome when done properly and will hold up just fine in most applications, but for extreme use, give me a stock removal, properly heat treated blade over San Mai any day of the week! San Mai is mostly a cosmetic upgrade (there are functional points to it I know!), but people shop with their eyes very often!

San mai and forging is about skill and people learning those skills and trying to perfect them. Wrought iron looks cool as cladding and I am OK with using recycled steel as long as that steel is tested so I can be sure the HT is correct on it! I forged out a 8670 blade and went through the forging, normalizing, thermocycling, quenching, (Forge HT) tempering process and made a knife from it and then proceeded to beat the snot out of it until I finally broke it to check the grain. I want to know my blade can perform before I sell something to someone!! I am going to do another one soon, but use my PID controlled Kiln so I can document the numbers I do the normalizing, thermocycling, quenching, etc at so I have a recipe to follow and will do test pieces if I get steel from a different supplier or something so I can compare. I enjoy learning this stuff, and doing a forge HT, but I would rather follow a know recipe/instructions with verified temps to know I really did it right for customers. Can I get decent performance with a forge HT? Yes! Can I do it consistently and max out the performance in a forge HT, nope!

If people do their research and due diligence, San Mai can look and perform beautifully. It may cost more because of the time/effort involved, testing process, etc. but the raw material cost may be lower. I don't like people charging an arm and a leg for a leaf spring blade, forged poorly , ground horribly (thick, uneven, wonky looking), iffy HT, poor looking blocky handles from red oak from Home Depot and thinking they are awesome and a knife maker because they made something that looks like a rustic knife and it was forged!

Everyone has to start somewhere, but many people have no clue what makes a high performance knife and show they have no idea what they are doing or talking about! I see people complaining they cannot drill through a tang after hardening and have no idea about carbide bits, annealing a tang or that they should have drilled their holes first. I see people who post a grain pic thinking the grain looks good and it's like granulated sugar and have no idea what temp they quenched out and don't know what normalizing or thermocycling is. There is so much info out there, but no one bothers to do any research! They just jump in blindly and assume they are doing good!

I also see guys who take the time and care to make the knife and their first few knives come out looking awesome!

If done properly, "garbage" steel (wrought iron cladding, leaf spring, ball bearing races, etc) can make great blades! But I think many are not doing their due diligence when it comes to this stuff, like doing test pieces, test heat treat/quenching coupons, etc. Using a leaf spring, forging it out poorly, quenching in canola oil judging the temp by eye (usually way too hot!!) will not produce a quality blade! Using a nice piece of 5160 barstock, stock removal, quenching in canola oil judging the temp by eye will not automatically produce a quality blade either! People see FiF and have no clue what really goes into knifemaking. If it doesn't break and can get sharp, they think it's awesome and charge accordingly!


Garbage in, Garbage out in this case refers to the maker. If they are doing poor work, their work will be poor no matter how good or bad the materials are to start with! If they are being fastidious, doing testing and figuring how to get the best from their materials, they will have a much better product and a better performing blade. It's the Maker, not the Material! Starting with good material helps, but using "garbage" materials can still produce a good blade!
 
Bühlmann said:
I’m far from an expert, but my understanding is it was primarily due to material scarcity, but perhaps an unintended consequence was the added mechanical properties of flexibility and toughness. I’ve read that traditional san mai long blades are far more likely to bend rather than break, extending their utility and longevity. I don’t have firsthand experience in this, just what I have researched.

A monosteel blade is much easier to construct, so I’m not clear on what you mean in your 2nd question. Price is purely a function of demand to my knowledge. I guess I don’t get what you are saying.
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According to people in the west, a mono steel blade is easier to construct. According to traditional Japanese makers, a “on Yaki“ mono steel blade is much more difficult to construct than a forge, welded san mai, and is the demonstration of the skill of a master knife maker. I have an unpopular opinion that says that the insistence on sticking to traditional materials and methods put the Japanese smiths at an inherent disadvantage. I have said, in the past that they succeed in spite of their materials and methods, not because of them. They are very very skilled, but a lot of what they do strikes me as somewhat unnecessary, and on occasion, counterproductive. How many blades are you willing to lose in the quench in the name of tradition?
 
Japanese smiths are very much stuck in tradition!! San Mai is easier to straighten and work/grind down with their big water cooled stone wheels and is more efficient material wise, but more inefficient labor wise! Yes, they can bend and not break, but mono steels can flex and return to true instead of staying bent. Forging a mono steel blade is easier to do simplicity wise, but softer mild steels move easier under the hammer (including cold forging) than a mono steel blade may, especially with the higher end mono steel. The San mai also acts as a "shock absorber" for the thinner, harder core material, especially in kitchen knives. Using 2/3 mild steel and 1/3 good core steel is usually less expensive, easier to thin, more forgiving. Using recycled material cuts way down on cost, too. Japanese makers often seem to be stuck in the past and more concerned with tradition than with actual performance. I have a Honyaki blade from a well known Japanese maker (Around $1000) and it's performance was so-so. Didn't really blow me away performance wise and other $200 Japanese knives performed the same or better for me, but it was a highly sought after blade/maker!

When you look at most Japanese knife makers, unless they are a large factory, they are smaller shops and use old equipment. Rarely do you see a 2x72 VFD belt sander, cnc machines, in a Japanese knife shop!! You may see a 4x36 or something similar, but they still do a LOT of grinding on large stone wheels. For their methods/equipment, san mai is easier for them. How long do you think it would take them to grind a mono steel blade in R2/SG2 on a stone wheel versus grinding a san mai blade with only the hard R2 at the core and much thinner? Mild/softer outer steel is easier to finish too, especially with their techniques.

They do succeed in spite of their materials/methods! I have many Japanese kitchen knives and have owned/played with many more! Compared to Henckels/Wustoff/Victorinox, they do much better. Compared to custom knife makers who make good kitchen knives (not all makers make good kitchen knives!!!), the performance is on par at best. They make good knives in spite of their techniques/materials/traditions holding them back, but many are not really innovating or looking to improve, but to honor the traditions.
 
For those interested I found a an incredible step by step for making a knife from a leaf spring.
www.instructables.com

Knife From a Car's Leaf Spring

Knife From a Car's Leaf Spring: This is my first instructable so I hope that it makes sense. I will show the basic steps for making a knife from a leaf spring off a truck. Every knife will be different so I will just explain the basic steps and alternative ways of making it if y…
www.instructables.com www.instructables.com
 
Wow. It is incredible how the more things change, the more they stay exactly the same. This thread could have been cut and pasted from any number of discussions from 2000, 1995 or even before, and with identical talking points. Except, and I will give you folks this, so far you are much nicer to each other these days. Not taking a side either way here, just noting how eternal the debate is, sometimes I wonder if each generation thinks it's a new one.
 
Taz575 said:
Japanese smiths are very much stuck in tradition!! San Mai is easier to straighten and work/grind down with their big water cooled stone wheels and is more efficient material wise, but more inefficient labor wise! Yes, they can bend and not break, but mono steels can flex and return to true instead of staying bent. Forging a mono steel blade is easier to do simplicity wise, but softer mild steels move easier under the hammer (including cold forging) than a mono steel blade may, especially with the higher end mono steel. The San mai also acts as a "shock absorber" for the thinner, harder core material, especially in kitchen knives. Using 2/3 mild steel and 1/3 good core steel is usually less expensive, easier to thin, more forgiving. Using recycled material cuts way down on cost, too. Japanese makers often seem to be stuck in the past and more concerned with tradition than with actual performance. I have a Honyaki blade from a well known Japanese maker (Around $1000) and it's performance was so-so. Didn't really blow me away performance wise and other $200 Japanese knives performed the same or better for me, but it was a highly sought after blade/maker!

When you look at most Japanese knife makers, unless they are a large factory, they are smaller shops and use old equipment. Rarely do you see a 2x72 VFD belt sander, cnc machines, in a Japanese knife shop!! You may see a 4x36 or something similar, but they still do a LOT of grinding on large stone wheels. For their methods/equipment, san mai is easier for them. How long do you think it would take them to grind a mono steel blade in R2/SG2 on a stone wheel versus grinding a san mai blade with only the hard R2 at the core and much thinner? Mild/softer outer steel is easier to finish too, especially with their techniques.

They do succeed in spite of their materials/methods! I have many Japanese kitchen knives and have owned/played with many more! Compared to Henckels/Wustoff/Victorinox, they do much better. Compared to custom knife makers who make good kitchen knives (not all makers make good kitchen knives!!!), the performance is on par at best. They make good knives in spite of their techniques/materials/traditions holding them back, but many are not really innovating or looking to improve, but to honor the traditions.
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So did we come up with those reasons after the fact? the use of iron as oppsed to lower carbon stell like in nihonto woudl lead me to believe that it was done to save money and material. Much like the Europeans did. What is different is that the Japanese process was not fully replaced. But remember that once the Tokugawa Shogunate took power, Japan was isolated from the rest of the "barbarian" modern world for the better part of 250 plus years pf the Edo period. As for your Honyaki blade, how would it's performance compared to say a very well made custom blade of 52100?
 
Hey Kevin, good to see you posting again. You provide GREAT tech support for us mere mortals in knifemaking.

Yes, I do think the KnifeDogs group is one of the most civil groups around -

Merry Christmas to all
 
Taz575 said:
I don't like that people assume a forged knife is always better than a stock removal knife! People seem to look down on stock removal,
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Just out of curiosity, do you guys run into this a lot? I actually use both methods depending on what I am making. For small knives I like SR for large or curvy knives I like forging. In honesty, sometimes I use both on a knife. If I am making damascus knives I do not like forging across my welds (I can, I just do not like it) so after my billet is drawn to length and width I switch to using SR. Most of the people I come into contact with assume all handmade knives are forged. Many have never heard of SR. Thankfully, this is one of those questions which has been covered enough that most makers know there is nothing magically better about a forged knife over a SR knife.

The thing that makes me laugh is that many people like forge marks or scale left on the blade so one "knows it was forged". In the days of old, if a blacksmith apprentice turned in work with scale or forge marks it was considered sloppy and lazy. The apprentice would find themselves getting very acquainted with files. Now people want it. Go figure.
 
Bühlmann said:
But I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts on what the possible disadvantages would be.
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I think it would be possible to bend that blade more easily if you were doing something like using the side to press/smash garlic cloves or cutting something with a lot of force, like a rutabaga, and the blade got twisted or torqued due to an uneven cut or the rutabaga rolled.

It may also rust easier than a hardened/polished steel. But I'm not 100% sure on that.

I think it would work fine in 95% or more circumstances so I realize my examples are not in the majority of the tasks.

Bühlmann said:
Full disclosure: I’m a big admirer of your work, so thank you for your insight.
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Thank you. I appreciate that.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Wow. It is incredible how the more things change, the more they stay exactly the same. This thread could have been cut and pasted from any number of discussions from 2000, 1995 or even before, and with identical talking points. Except, and I will give you folks this, so far you are much nicer to each other these days. Not taking a side either way here, just noting how eternal the debate is, sometimes I wonder if each generation thinks it's a new one.
Click to expand...
We have become more cosiderate since people began putting copper in their blades. ;)
 
Chris Railey said:
Just out of curiosity, do you guys run into this a lot? I actually use both methods depending on what I am making. For small knives I like SR for large or curvy knives I like forging. In honesty, sometimes I use both on a knife. If I am making damascus knives I do not like forging across my welds (I can, I just do not like it) so after my billet is drawn to length and width I switch to using SR. Most of the people I come into contact with assume all handmade knives are forged. Many have never heard of SR. Thankfully, this is one of those questions which has been covered enough that most makers know there is nothing magically better about a forged knife over a SR knife.

The thing that makes me laugh is that many people like forge marks or scale left on the blade so one "knows it was forged". In the days of old, if a blacksmith apprentice turned in work with scale or forge marks it was considered sloppy and lazy. The apprentice would find themselves getting very acquainted with files. Now people want it. Go figure.
Click to expand...
I forge in great part because it is fun and also, I don't feel like grinding away half or more of my 1/4 inch stock if I need to make a lightweight knife. Don't tell anyone, but I have done a bit of straight stock removal with AEB-L and 3V. Shhhhhh. ;) Obviously, I forge my damascus, But, in a number of cases, I do not forge to 90% because the patterns look better if I do the last bit by SR. Trying to forge on ladder pattern after you have done the laddering has a tendency to mess up the effect a bit. I did that once on a big knife because the blade wasn't quite as wide as i wanted. Kind of washed the pattern a bit. Now you can forge in a bit of recurve after laddering and it done carefully, the ladder will follow the curvature.
 
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jmforge said:
Trying to forge on ladder pattern after you have done the laddering has a tendency to mess up the effect a bit.
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I had not thought about that. I have not made ladder because when I make 100+ layer billets I tend to get a very similiar effect from the drawing dies on my press and its less work.
 
Chris Railey said:
I had not thought about that. I have not made ladder because when I make 100+ layer billets I tend to get a very similiar effect from the drawing dies on my press and its less work.
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This is the blade that I was talking about. See how it opens up a bit toward the edge?
 

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