fighters vs. tacticals, what can you teach me?

SHOKR

SHOKR

Well-Known Member
Hey guys

I'll give short intro to hopefully explain whats on my mind

For the time being the only steel ichave access to is 1/4" sverker 21 (D2), in slightly above 2" width, so i have been focusing my designing and learning on larger knives, and since im new handles represent a challenge to me

I recently read something that said its better to have straight handles for tactical and bent down/ curved ones for fighters
Anybody cares to explain why?

Also another question ive been carrying around for a while, is what is the TRUE purpose of a fighter, most of the ones i see would probably better be replaced with 'tactical' ones, i mean stag and wood are probably not best for fighting situation
Unless of course ive been taking the name too literal and it has other function

Also what are the defining differences between a tactical and a fighter?
I know tactical is sort of a wild card, different people has different descriptions for it.
So far all i know fighters has thinner edge before sharpening and swedge and tacticals have thicker edge and swedge can be used or not (but preferable?)

If someone can add bowies to the equation i would be grateful, because i am guessing the train of thought would most likely stop at that station soon
All i know about bowies is they have thicker edge before sharpening

Any info regarding edge thickness, handle shape, grind type, swedge, anything is welcome

Thanks in advance

Sorry that turned out long but i wanted to give you guys all the info i have so you would give me a more focused reply
 
Well, since nobody else is taking A stab at this one I,ll throw my 2cents in.

Imagine Jim Bowie fighting with a "tactical knife" no, he used a big ole southwest Bowie with a hand forged clip point high carbon steel. He didn't go to the Alamo with a little tactical knife but instead took that big Bowie. It had "Wow Factor" that demanded attention. It didn't have a reflective subdued blade with a wire cutter on the spine or a fire starter in the handle but it had a big brass double guard and antler handle. It could be used for everything in camp too from cutting kindling and splitting firewood to loping off the legs from a whitetail deer.

A "Fighter" is a long slender version of a Bowie. It's not expected to chop wood but if you need to make small children run away and cry it works good for that when you pull it out of the sheath. I,d rather get shot with a gun than get into a knife fight.
I believe the forged fighter blade was invented from knife makers that forged their Bowies too long and thin. They just kept hammering until it got too dang long and named it "A Fighter"

Maybe somebody else can explain what a "Tactical Knife" is because I,M a Member of the ABS and we are still trying to forge the perfect Bowie Knife. I,ve actually made some "tactical knifes" from stock removal methods and people buy them but I,m not sure for what. I,ve been told that they would penetrate a cars door but haven't actually needed to do that. I have made police knives but the cops tell me they are too big to carry. The most carried police knife son Mike and I made is a very small "Last Ditch Effort" knife worn inside the belt. He has it on him at all times. I see huge folding knives that cost a small fortune that are called tacticals but I havent made one....yet. I believe the best "tactical" would be from somebody that has spent some time in the military. I,ve never served but have always thought somebody that has could design the right "Tactical Knife"
 
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Many thanks Bruce!

that actually confirmed/cleared some confusion i had between Fighters and Bowies

any take on the handle shapes/functions? i am assuming the curve in bowies is to help with chopping wood or any other material
 
I would think that a tactical blade would be one which is smaller than a fighter, lite weight, possibly concealable, and can serve multiple tasks. Having said that I cant help but believe that the term tactical has grown and blossomed over time and has become more of a marketing term than anything else.

As far as handle shapes are concerned, I dont think all knives fit into one catagory in this regard. My experience allbeit not very extensive, leads me to believe that the curved handles on Bowies is relatively new as all of the original designs had straight ones.
A fighting knife (if the knife is to be used for it's namesake) should have a handle that can be comfortably gripped in the underhand or overhand hold position.
Whereas a tactical blade (which can be task specific) should have a handle that can be readily gripped in either hand hold, but be designed to use in the normal hold manner.
As Bruce alluded to and other makers have turned to, those who use the knives on a regular basis are the ones best suited to determine specific blade and handle requirements.

My $0.02 given at no cost and is not redeemable at exchange value.

Ahmad, this is a series of good solid questions. I am sure that anyone who has ever made knives for the public has wondered these same things at one time or another.
 
thanks Eric

what you said makes a lot of sense, i have two books on tactical knives (just read bits and pieces from them so far)and in the intro of one of them called The Tactical Knife, when people were asked what they thought the tactical knife is, they said and i quote

-a tactical knife is a knife that fits a specific role according to its use
-anything black and twice the price
-the knife you have in your hand when some son of a b**** is coming at you
-a tactical knife is one you can take to war and that will survive in the worst possible environment and under the hardest use
-put saw teeth on it spray it black and it's tactical
-it's like a survival knife, something you can depend on when something bad happens
-tactical is just marketing name knife makers came up with to sell knives
-the strongest knife you can find that can still cut good
-its a meaningless term. any knife can be a tactical knife depending how you use it
- my Swiss Army Knife is the best tactical knife there is. i can do anything with it
-dude. it's the steel you pack when things might go south

now in a sense, they are all right one way or another, thats why in my mind and with my lack of experience i focus on cutting and standing to abuse

it is worth mentioning that the Spanish Navaja and the Laguiole were mentioned in the book in addition to the byrd spydercos!

of course Bowies had a complete chapter in it

so again i dont believe their is a definite description to a tactical. however when i personally assked about it here i had in mind the ones like model i shared here, that can go along nicely with the size and type of steel i have access to and have a range of uses.

Bill Coye told me "My goal isn't to make a "sharpened pry bar" my goal is to make an instrument." which sort of clicked in my head also

for the most part i believe there is no right or wrong in the knifemaking, but again there are some definite guide lines for making good dependable knives


also a man i know who has experience with tactical once told me dont limit the handle of a knife to a single grip (thats what you said about being held 'regularly' and in 'reverse')

... i think i lost my point here...

anyway because i have no access to quality knives here all i learn is from you guys, videos, and pictures. so i am trying to understand the general guidelines THEN put my own twist on them

also i am currently working only with full tangs and stock, but i am absolutely fascinated by the hidden tang knives and forging so i know sooner or later i will try them . hence the inquiry on fighters and bowies

Eric, the piece of info about older Bowies having straight handles is actually new to me, i have been seeing so many (new) ones with curved handles to the point when i saw new one made with straight handle i thought the maker was just simply wrong, or perhaps making a collectors knife with no strong regard for practicality... wow we live and learn!!
when i read it i checked The Antique Bowie Knife Book and you are absolutely right, their designs differ GREATLY (some even look like daggers or the roman swords) but almost all of them have a straight handle
i can share few pics if you guys are interested

i talk a lot dont i? gives you a glimpse of what actually happens in my head :D
 
It's easy to talk a lot about something you care deeply for. Your desire to build good solid quality knives is evident through your work and your diligence in seeking information. You are on the right track. Keep up the good work and keep us posted with your findings.
 
I can't speak for anyone else but I should say that a tactical knife usually is a style but tactical means designed for a specific purpose. There are tactical knives and tactical combat knives, tactical combat knives being to regular tactical knives what fighters are to the Bowie. Tactical in my opinion is a knife that puts function first and form second. Fighters are also to an extent a style of knives I believe, they have already been explained here but it is my understanding that a fighter isn't necessarily for fighting as such. I have a question though, are there any other names for fighters, say I make one to sell, it would be illegal to suggest that it could be used for fighting, what else would I be able to call one?
 
In my opinion MOST fighters are carbon steel hidden tangs with natural handle materials such as antler or wood. Tacticals are usually made with more modern steels with a full tang and synthetic handle material. I know there are exceptions to both of these but I feel that is the way the majority of both are made and is the biggest difference between the two as far as I can tell.
 
What a great question and some thoughtful answers. I have done some pretty extensive research on the Bowie, and have some very good resources that I would be happy to pass along if anyone is interested.
 
Bruce Bump said:
Well, since nobody else is taking A stab at this one I,ll throw my 2cents in.

Imagine Jim Bowie fighting with a "tactical knife" no, he used a big ole southwest Bowie with a hand forged clip point high carbon steel. He didn't go to the Alamo with a little tactical knife but instead took that big Bowie. It had "Wow Factor" that demanded attention. It didn't have a reflective subdued blade with a wire cutter on the spine or a fire starter in the handle but it had a big brass double guard and antler handle. It could be used for everything in camp too from cutting kindling and splitting firewood to loping off the legs from a whitetail deer.

A "Fighter" is a long slender version of a Bowie. It's not expected to chop wood but if you need to make small children run away and cry it works good for that when you pull it out of the sheath. I,d rather get shot with a gun than get into a knife fight.
I believe the forged fighter blade was invented from knife makers that forged their Bowies too long and thin. They just kept hammering until it got too dang long and named it "A Fighter"

Maybe somebody else can explain what a "Tactical Knife" is because I,M a Member of the ABS and we are still trying to forge the perfect Bowie Knife. I,ve actually made some "tactical knifes" from stock removal methods and people buy them but I,m not sure for what. I,ve been told that they would penetrate a cars door but haven't actually needed to do that. I have made police knives but the cops tell me they are too big to carry. The most carried police knife son Mike and I made is a very small "Last Ditch Effort" knife worn inside the belt. He has it on him at all times. I see huge folding knives that cost a small fortune that are called tacticals but I havent made one....yet. I believe the best "tactical" would be from somebody that has spent some time in the military. I,ve never served but have always thought somebody that has could design the right "Tactical Knife"
Click to expand...

Bruce,
To the best of my knowledge no one really knows exactly what the Bowie knife that Jim Bowie used in the famous sand hill fight or otherwise. In the movie Steel Mistress the actor Alan Ladd had a Clip point so it seems that's what we think it looked like.

Reza Bowie, Jim's brother and maker of his knife or knives? Has one in the Smithsonian.

http://collections.si.edu/search/results.htm?view=&dsort=&date.slider=&q=Bowie+knife

My intention is not to start any debate but to try to answer this post for Ahmad and us all with as factual information as possible.

The Bowie knife does seem to come out of a large butcher & camp blade with all of the chores in mind as well as a large guard for catching a opponents blade or sword in a fight. Pistols and rifles/muskets were single shot back then as you may have to get up close and personal rather than reload.

I do think a Fighter was born out of a need for a lighter knife for self defense for Gamblers and anyone else that carried money and was out and about in the midnight hours.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 
I believe every knife enthusiast has their own view of what a Bowie should be. If only they would have found Jim's original Bowie after the Alamo battle we may all be making something entirely different.

This book is filled with Bowies and tells everything known about what Jim's knife was like: The Bowie Knife by Norm Flayderman ISBN: 1-931464-12-X
Its well worth the price of around $79 and great reading and inspiration

Good discussion guys.
 
To me, a tactical knife is simply a no frills utility knife, intended to handle any and every task that may be required of a knife in the field. This generally calls for maximum strength in every part of design and construction... stout edges, stout points, stout materials.

A fighter, on the other hand, has only one grim purpose, and every culture on earth has its own style that suites that purpose.... a fighting knife need have no practical utility value beyond that purpose, you are not going to be whittling or opening crates with it.
 
Shokr,
The bowie knife on the link that is thought to be made by Reza Bowie, Jims' brother is this one.

"Confederate Bowie Knife and Scabbard." I think it's the 3rd one down.

"Colonel Jim Bowie", A rank he earned while fighting for the Confederates in the War between the states.

According to this info another man made Jim's knife for him?

http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Bowie_knife/

One more funny thing Almad, is the pronunciation of the name Bowie was a French possibility Scottish name like Boo-we Not Bow-ie like the current British rock star named David Bowie. Which is how many people pronounce it these days. :biggrin:

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 
thanks a lot guys for the links, info, and book recommendation

Laurence, thats funny because i know how much you guys hate the french :p

i think i am starting to see the big picture now, it seems i was looking at this in a too much technical or narrow perspective. i guess there is a fine line between following some guide lines and constricting myself with rules or names/categories of knives

if anybody has info on the different functions considered with shapes of handles that would be great
i know some of you explained the upward and downward function but i am asking about any other physical features that would affect or change a knife's function

thanks again
 
SHOKR, don't worry about rules and what not, make a knife how you want and see what it turns out to be. Also I am Scottish, I still refuse to say boowie, it sounds worse than tomayto and aloominum.
 
Almad,
I don't hate the French! I can just do well without them!:biggrin:
Besides, It wasn't Jim Bowie's fault that he was of French ancestry.

A lot of handle design is & was driven by ease of manufacturing. A straight stick handle is easier to cut, shape and finish than one with contours.

I myself find a index finger & second finger cut out along with a thumb ramp all important features to be able to use a variety of grips on a handle.

My knives are culinary in design mostly these days but I found those same three features useful on my Camp, Fighter & Bowie designs allowing one to choke up on the handle, Have a mid grip with a thumb extended and to go back back on the handle to allow more leverage for chopping tasks.

I haven't found a need for reverse grip on my Culinary knives yet? But one never knows.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 
GHEzell said:
A fighter, on the other hand, has only one grim purpose, and every culture on earth has its own style that suites that purpose.... a fighting knife need have no practical utility value beyond that purpose, you are not going to be whittling or opening crates with it.
Click to expand...

Well said! That should be my sig line LOL.

The last 4 knives I've made, and People keep asking what practical use they have...Now I have an answer. lol

C654D44A-36AC-45B4-9805-A4040A635F3D-179-000000A1D37EA2BC_zps3f5c0cab.jpg
 
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