Fat Belly Bowie Handle Job WIP

[Mark Behnke]

Walt
To answer your question on how to patina brass I have used this method, very unpredictable and slow, you have to repeat the process. http://jewelrymakingjournal.com/easy-patina-finishes-for-copper-and-brass/

C Craft
Thank you for your response I think we are talking production knives vs. custom in that period.

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[wall e]

Thanks Mark. That would darken and antique it alot depending on the duration of the soak. I discussed the brass issue and he said just the cleaned up shine will be ok since the sheath will cover the guard. It wont be polished just satin finish and will tarnish up on its own in a few months of use.
Heres the tang scuffed and wiped down with acetone

Heres the scales epoxied before peening and rounding edges and finger grooves and texture cut into scales

After edges rounded finger grooves sanded smooth (discovered micarta can be burnished too. Oops but cool) soaked it in a bucket of water to see how it was to hold when wet. Gripped better when wet and was sanded to 120 grit.

Close up of scale texture and grooves and pins.

 

[wall e]

Heres the last of the pair handled and ready to go. Discovered that older micarta submits to a wood rasp quite well

 

[LRB]

That ammonia patina does not look like natural patina at all. A quick and easy method is to apply cold blue that is used to touch up guns. It is nearly instant and has some brown in with black. You can also go back over areas you might want changed. A fresh wipe takes most of the previous color off and you can play with it to get what you want. Once dry and left alone, it is quite durable. The brass must be clean before you start. No finger prints or coating.

 

[wall e]

Thanks LRB. The fellow is ok with the shine on the brass it will darken in a few weeks in the shed he has.

 

[rhinoknives]

My research shows the pins were mostly steel. A big majority of knives back then did not use a guard.

Here is what was commonly called a trade knife back then, these are from Old Dominion Forge they were used by many nationalities in trade with the Indians in the fur trade. The difference in blade shape, handle material and few other differences, is what denote who the nation was that was supplying them for trade back then.

These pictured are pretty much true to form. No guard and steel pins. Guards would have been mostly steel, if the knife had one.

True as soon as the Bowie knife was born in America, Sheffield wanted in on the money being made in America over the story surrounding the Bowie knife fight and they began to import many knives to America. Here is a link from Wikepida about Sheffield, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sheffield

See what most folks don't under stand that America as we know it today did not exist. You had the states on the east coast and most of the rest of America was territories. Trade moved West and the big jumping off point was St. Louis, here is a link to the history and the westward expansion as seen thru St. Louis Missouri, http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-Midwest/St-Louis-History.html

Knives were primarily tools of the trade. Often like I said it was bring what you got! Folks looks at old pictures from way back and say see their is a knife like that. Remember back in the early days of photography the subject/s had to stand still for a long period of time. A lot of what shows up in photos involving trappers, traders and some American Indian photos were props brought by the photographer to take the pic.

There would have been use of brass on the east coast but as it moved westward much slower. Hollywood would have everyone to believe that every blacksmith in every settlement and those that moved westward did nothing but manufacture knives. When in reality most of them were to busy in the every day tasks of repairing what was moving westward at the time or what had made it that far and their was no way to get parts for it. It was kind of like, can you fix this! The bigger majority of knives back then were trade knives used to trade with the Indians and research will support that the backers of the expeditions going forth to supply the Fur traders, trappers and such were ordered to be cheap with no frills! Another thing that supports this is the old blades that have been dug up, if they had brass guards and pins they would still more than likely exist. They would be corroded but they don't rot away like steel in the ground. Most blades dug up are only the blade with pin holes but no pins, and no guards. I have a book with pics but at present my scanner doesn't work so got no way to post pics.

This is a link to the knives of the man I spoke of with knowledge of this time period and his knives are some of the most true copies of that time period bar none that you will find. http://www.wickellerbe.com/ You will see that few of the knives have brass pins or brass guards.

This is beginning to overtake the original thread by Walt My original intention was only to advise Walt, not start a discussion on history correct!

So if you want to continue the discussion we should move it to a new thread! Give me a yell and I will try and start a new thread if that is wanted!! Truth and Hollywood do not always run hand in hand!!

Cliff,
OK, you are referring to TRADE knives. For trade with indians and settlers. I am very aware of that part of history. Those arrived in stacked in a hogs head barrel from England and some from Germany etc without any handle or edge and in 1820 there was still a large use of Spanish & English Coin in the Louisiana purchase area and further west.

It still depends if you were in a big city or you were out on the plains somewhere and your level of wealth. If you had any money the smith would make you a knife with a brass guard. So in volume of knives, you are correct. But not all knives and Walt asked about darkening brass on some Bowie type knives. The fore runner of the Bowie were large spanish knives, Gaucho style and butcher knives.

No worries Walt! LOL

 

[LRB]

Don't know about the edge condition, but there is no evidence or documentation of trade knives being shipped without grips in the 18th c.

 

[Mark Behnke]

This is from "The Antique Bowie Knife Book" by Bill Adams, J. Bruce Voyles, Terry Moss copy right 1990
page 64 and 65

 

[LRB]

That is not documentation. That is simply an authors assumption, or just a repeated falsehood. There is no known evidence, or documentation for just blades being exported from Europe. For one thing, the French guilds would not have allowed it, and who was going to want to have to put grips on after they would have arrived here? They were cheap enough to not have to bother with putting grips on them. Trust me, or investigate for yourself, but it just didn't happen. Many, and most relic dug up blades have no grips, but after 200+ years in the sea or ground, not but a few would have survived with intact grips, or any trace of them. I did see an English with pieces of rosewood still clinging to it. Shipping manifests from England and France, not only mention only hafted knives, but also the wood used, which made a price difference. The most common wood was European beech for both English and French, but many were ordered with exotics, usually reddish woods, from Africa and SA, and European boxwood was very popular.

 

[C Craft]

Here is some info that corroborates what I was speaking of that brass had a limited use in the early 1800's in America not only it production knives but custom knives of that period as well, as stated blacksmiths of time would build you a knife but only when they got time, there sun up to sun down jobs kept them busy most of the time! Most of this is info about Sheffield and the knives that they were producing and sending to America at the time. In all honesty Sheffield's contribution to knives of the 1800's was only one part of the Fur trade and westward expansion. There were many countries that were producing goods/knives to send to America to be used in the trade for furs. This is just some of the information I have compiled of the time period, and this is primarily about the Sheffield's contribution to knives in the Early 1800's in America.

First here is a copy of a manifest of supplies for Jeddediah Smith He organized more that one of the big fur trading/trapping expeditions of the fur trade period, the early 1800's.
Note the knife requests. No where does it ask for knives without handles. https://user.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/smithgood.html

Here is a exert from, Some Thoughts on Butchers & Other Knives By Gene Hickman. Notice the text I highlighted in blue! This is what I was speaking of when I mentioned there was limited use of brass in the early 1800's

A few years ago I contacted a company in Sheffield England that has been in the knife business since 1700. I was trying to obtain knives that would have been available in 1803 and perhaps used by the Lewis & Clark expedition. The company I contacted told me that the majority of their utility cutlery was going to North America and Africa all through the 1700 & 1800s. Their records show a common butcher knife just like those used today. They sent me drawings and dimensions of what they were making as butcher knives from the 1700s on. The only difference in the earlier to the later 1800s knives was that the nose got broader; otherwise they were the same width as the handle. Of course the older knives had tapered tangs and pins rather than brass cutler's rivets, which date from the 1890s.Most early butchers had blades as wide as the handle with the characteristic fat nose with up-swept point.

Here is another exert from the same piece, that is about the use of brass.


The Sheffield guys told me that some of the handles were also of the extreme octagon shape and that other handles were originally nothing more than the rectangular slab handles with the corners angled. They also told me that tangs were made both half and full. Full tangs were easier to haft and were stronger, but cost slightly

more to produce. Pin numbers varied as to the size of the blade it supported and whether it was full or half tang. You'll see 4, 5, or 6 pins commonly, usually depending on the size of the knife. Either way it was always more than 3 pins. The 3 pins become standard with the invention of the “big fat” brass cutler's rivets of the 1890s.

Iron and less often brass pins are correct for the time period and not the large brass cutler’s rivets. Brass pins are also acceptable. *Note it does say brass is acceptable but that they more often than not iron was used, limited use in other words!
Some of the 19th century examples even have 3/32” to 1/8" iron pins. The norm, based on years of handling

and looking at originals in collections and other research, is wood handled with iron pins.



The entire piece is here if you care to read it! Yes this piece is from an author but, the majority of the piece is information directly from Sheffield company itself, not the authors opinion. Even when does give his opinion is based on years of handling and looking at originals.

http://www.manuellisaparty.com/articles/pfd%27s/Some%20Thoughts%20on%20Butchers.pdf



I also have several actual manifests for the expeditions that traveled Westward not only to supply the Fur trappers/traders as well to trade with the Indians for their furs. If I can find where I have them I will post them for you. They were often very detailed in what they wanted as they knew what worked well as trade items. The fur trapper/traders wanted certain items but the trade with the Indians was as varied from button, beads, cloth, knives and such items as umbrellas. You would think that items like this were not appropriate for trade but the Indian's were often traded virtual junk for valuable pelts. The trinkets were something they had never seen and to them it was valuable because they had never seen such, cloth, bells, beads, knives before!

 

[C Craft]

Heres the last of the pair handled and ready to go. Discovered that older micarta submits to a wood rasp quite well 

Walt, congrats to you in your completion of your pieces. Each endeavor is a learning experience in one way or another, in knife making in my opinion. You learn what to do, and in some cases what not to do. The easy way of doing a certain operation, and the not so easy way of doing a certain operation. However the big key is too keep learning from it and have fun with it! The customer is always right as they say in business, however there may come a time as I found out back when I done construction, you have to ask yourself a question. Do I really want to work for that customer?? When and if, that day comes be graceful and bow out in a way that leaves the door open for other customers! My father used to say if you do a good job your name will get around fast enough, and if you do a bad job your name will beat you from job to job!

 

[Self Made Knives]

Walt, have you handed them back to their owners yet? If so, how'd it go? I'll bet they were happy with them.

 

[wall e]

Too true C Craft. I learned that the old mill scrap micarta plugged up my belt faster than the wood or antler. Decided to spend a few bucks on a file set because I needed them and the wife said go for it theyre on sale.
Anthony, He was very happy it was a beyond what he expected done with them.
As payment I got some cash to cover the epoxy and my time and a pair of old school boning shape/skinner shape blanks as trade also.