Drying scales in dehydrator

K

KentuckyFisherman

Well-Known Member
A couple of weeks ago I ordered on ebay a maple burl block that was 6.5x6.5x2.5. While the block wasn't stabilized, the wood appeared plenty hard and solid to use as is. I cut about half the block and got three sets of scales, then it dawned on me that since the block seemed fairly heavy, it might not have been dried. I went back and checked the seller's comments and drying wasn't mentioned. I decided to try drying the scales I had cut in my jerky dehydrator at 95 degrees. I weighed each piece and recorded it on masking tape. The blocks lost the most weight in the first 10-12 hours of drying, then only lost a little across another 12 hours. They averaged 17% weight loss and there was no warping or cracking.

My questions are:

1) Does that 17% weight loss in drying sounds about right?
2) Since I didn't see any warping during the drying, should the scales be stable enough to work?
3) I'm considering dying some of these scales with alcohol-based dye. Should I dye the scales before attaching and shaping them, or wait until the shape is like I want it and then dye them?

I attached photos of the scales I cut. Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise with a newbie.

IMG_1679.jpgIMG_1678.jpgIMG_1680.jpg
 
Here's some info on wood weight %. With your measurements, you should be able to approximate the moisture % as received, assuming you got it to nearly zero. The fact that it didn't warp or crack during drying is a good sign.

Products - Puuinfo

www.woodproducts.fi www.woodproducts.fi
 
I had to dry some fresh Osage Orange for a knife for a friend. I bought a cheap moisture meter. I think it started out as 30 something % moisture. I got it down to 7% using the dehydrator. Not sure how to calculate moisture based on weight but it might help to pick up a cheap moisture meter.
 
I would speak to Gene Kimmi on this he works on wood and once said a cheap mosture meter is a crap shoot.Not his words but close.Wood needs to be dried at 200 for 24hrs.
 
Rick Otts said:
I would speak to Gene Kimmi on this he works on wood and once said a cheap mosture meter is a crap shoot.Not his words but close.Wood needs to be dried at 200 for 24hrs.
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Maybe I got lucky with the cheap meter. I tried the Osage Orange scales at 200 in the oven and they warped badly. That's what inspired me to use the dehydrator and a cheap meter.
 
Rick Otts said:
I would speak to Gene Kimmi on this he works on wood and once said a cheap mosture meter is a crap shoot.Not his words but close.Wood needs to be dried at 200 for 24hrs.
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If you try to dry scale sized wood for 24 hours @200 degrees, you'll probably end up with something akin to ash.
 
If you are trying to avoid warps especially in scale sized pieces I would think slow and low would be the tempo. A 95 degree dehydrator with circulating air was brilliant in my opinion. When i used to make longbows I would put the staves (split or otherwise) in a large wooden box I made with a couple of single bulb fixtures lit up and a small fan in one end to circulate air. Worked very well to get the wood below 10% moisture.
 
Low and slow is definitely the way to go. Even then, if the moisture is above 15%, you can get some checking and cracking in harder woods. I don't put any heat or air to the wood until the moisture has dropped below 15%. There is almost always some amount of warping when drying wood. I cut everything oversize to account for the warping.
 
Gene Kimmi said:
Low and slow is definitely the way to go. Even then, if the moisture is above 15%, you can get some checking and cracking in harder woods. I don't put any heat or air to the wood until the moisture has dropped below 15%. There is almost always some amount of warping when drying wood. I cut everything oversize to account for the warping.
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Where do you like to get them to before you use them?
 
Chris Railey said:
Where do you like to get them to before you use them?
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For furniture grade lumber, 6 - 8 % is the standard, so that's what I shoot for. If it's dried below 6%, it will pick the moisture back up from humidity in the air. 10% would be the highest I would want it as I've seen glue joints come apart with lumber that was 12 - 14%.

When I finish drying the wood, I like to let it equalize for a month or so before I use it, longer if I can. It's amazing what the moisture in the air will do to wood. I've glued up panels for raised panel doors and seen the panels shrink 1/8" in width in a few days. I try to order my lumber in a couple weeks ahead of time to let it acclimate to my shop to prevent this. Kiln dried lumber is like a sponge, it will soak up any moisture available to it.
 
Wood that is too dry when you put it on a knife is just as bad as wood that it not dry enough when you put it on. The most ideal thing to do is match the moisture content of the wood (and any natural material) to the average moisture in the air where the knife is going to live.

At home here in Alaska the average indoor humidity hovers around 8 percent. If I put scales on a knife that are wetter than that, they will likely shrink, pins will stick out and the tang will be proud. If I put scales on a knife that are dryer than 8 percent, they will likely absorb moisture from the air and swell.

For those reasons, the ABS teaches and we strive to use techniques that mitigate those problems. I personally do not force-dry anything.
 
Thanks so much for the replies, this is exactly the kind of information I was hoping to get. Can I also get your opinions about my dye question? Before the glue-up and shaping? After? Why?

I just found this post from J. Doyle about 4-5 years ago, which I believe addresses my dye question. If his advice has changed, or you can add to it, that'd be great. Here's what Mr. Doyle had to say:

"For pretty much any handle but curly maple is the topic here, the process is about the same. Finish your handle shaping and sanding completely. I like about 1500 grit on curly maple. When it's all done, put your favorite color leather dye on a piece of old t-shirt and wipe it on liberally. Wipe off the excess. Let it dry for a few minutes then I buff it by hand with a piece of blue shop towel, the throw away paper towel-like kind. I find them ever so slightly abrasive which works good to even out the finish. Then I repeat the dying process as many times as it takes to get the color I like. Then you can lightly and quickly burnish the handle with some strips of newspaper or the back side of a strip of sandpaper or some 2500 grit paper or whatever and 'sand' like you do when finish sanding your handle. Only think 'burnish' here and not 'sanding' you want to get the surface burnished so it's shiny not sand off the color. When you have that where you like it, you can apply several coats of oil like Tru Oil and do the same thing over as you did with the dye. Apply, smooth and burnish. Apply, smooth and burnish. Repeat as necessary."
 
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Mark Knapp said:
Wood that is too dry when you put it on a knife is just as bad as wood that it not dry enough when you put it on. The most ideal thing to do is match the moisture content of the wood (and any natural material) to the average moisture in the air where the knife is going to live.

At home here in Alaska the average indoor humidity hovers around 8 percent. If I put scales on a knife that are wetter than that, they will likely shrink, pins will stick out and the tang will be proud. If I put scales on a knife that are dryer than 8 percent, they will likely absorb moisture from the air and swell.

For those reasons, the ABS teaches and we strive to use techniques that mitigate those problems. I personally do not force-dry anything.
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Average humidity here is 71% daily to 87% in the morning.
 
Mark Knapp said:
At home here in Alaska the average indoor humidity hovers around 8 percent. If I put scales on a knife that are wetter than that, they will likely shrink, pins will stick out and the tang will be proud. If I put scales on a knife that are dryer than 8 percent, they will likely absorb moisture from the air and swell.
Click to expand...
I had a second piece of mammoth ivory that was outside at about 10 below. I brought it into the house which about 60 degrees. I came back in about two days and some small cracks became huge. Do you think that was due to indoor/outdoor humidity or too fast of a temperature change?
I'm also in the interior.
 
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KentuckyFisherman said:
Thanks so much for the replies, this is exactly the kind of information I was hoping to get. Can I also get your opinions about my dye question? Before the glue-up and shaping? After? Why?

I just found this post from J. Doyle about 4-5 years ago, which I believe addresses my dye question. If his advice has changed, or you can add to it, that'd be great. Here's what Mr. Doyle had to say:

"For pretty much any handle but curly maple is the topic here, the process is about the same. Finish your handle shaping and sanding completely. I like about 1500 grit on curly maple. When it's all done, put your favorite color leather dye on a piece of old t-shirt and wipe it on liberally. Wipe off the excess. Let it dry for a few minutes then I buff it by hand with a piece of blue shop towel, the throw away paper towel-like kind. I find them ever so slightly abrasive which works good to even out the finish. Then I repeat the dying process as many times as it takes to get the color I like. Then you can lightly and quickly burnish the handle with some strips of newspaper or the back side of a strip of sandpaper or some 2500 grit paper or whatever and 'sand' like you do when finish sanding your handle. Only think 'burnish' here and not 'sanding' you want to get the surface burnished so it's shiny not sand off the color. When you have that where you like it, you can apply several coats of oil like Tru Oil and do the same thing over as you did with the dye. Apply, smooth and burnish. Apply, smooth and burnish. Repeat as necessary."
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We have a vacuum stabilizer that we dye with when we dye.

If I am not using the vacuum we sand the handle to the finished size and shape, up to four hundred grit. We flood the surface with dye twice, let it sit for a half hour or so. Wipe it dry and let the die dry over night.

Then sand to six or eight hundred grit. coat with paste wax and buff. We use finishing oil too, follow the instructions, basically John's instructions are the same. After all that, we paste wax and buff with a muslin wheel on our buffer with white diamond rouge.
 
soundmind said:
I had a second piece of mammoth ivory that was outside at about 10 below. I brought it into the house which about 60 degrees. I came back in about two days and some small cracks became huge. Do you think that was due to indoor/outdoor humidity or too fast of a temperature change?
I'm also in the interior.
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Drastic changes in both temperature and humidity will crack mammoth ivory like that. We keep our ivory in the shop all the time where it is a consistance temperature and humidity. We let the ivory cure for a year before we use it.
 
Chris Railey said:
I searched “average indoor humidity” for my area so I think so. Let’s put it this way, if you are serving potato chips and you put them out too far in advance they WILL be affected by the humidity.
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That sounds very high. It would rust steel. The highest I've ever heard of was in the 30's. You must have a huge problem of handle movement when you ship a knife to someone. Where do you live?
 
Mark Knapp said:
That sounds very high. It would rust steel. The highest I've ever heard of was in the 30's. You must have a huge problem of handle movement when you ship a knife to someone. Where do you live?
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I went back and looked out of curiosity and I think that number is for outdoor humidity. I have no way to figure out indoor humidity other than its high. I live in a little town called Waynesboro Georgia and yes if you leave unprotected steel in my shop it will rust, not if, but when.
 
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