Damascus with nickel for a blade?

Thanks guys. I read the brochure they gave me with it and it said exactly what you all said. I just didn't understand exactly what it was saying. Thanks for clarifying.

I've already got a Blade for my EDC folder ready for heat treat and another couple of small blades in the works for my first slip joints.
 
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After talking with Lacy Smith the other day while I was heat treating the blade, he made the comment that if it had "nickel" written on it it may have had some pure nickel in it.

I don't know what I did differently, but I was not able to get anymore than 55Rc out of it. I heat treated it three times trying to get a better hardness, but that's about all I could get. I think it may have some pure nickel in it. Surely that would bring the overall harness attainability down (I would think). What do you guys think?
 
How does the blade perform? I read somewhere that it is hard to get an accurate HRC reading on forge welded damascus. You might want to test the edge and see how it does. If it's still soft, you might need to go to the dreaded water quench.

Doug Lester
 
I don't know how to test the edge without leaving a dimple from the diamond on the tester. How do you guys do yours? I imagine it could possibly be a little higher hardness down towards the blade but I'm not sure. It is hollow ground, so there isn't a whole lot of material there that I could get away with having a dimple that needs to be ground out.
 
I would first like to say that the myth that one cannot Rockwell damascus is exactly that - a myth. But it is only a myth if one uses two good steels in the mix, so in the case of having pure nickel in the mix I would say that you are only spinning your wheels trying to take a Rockwell reading anywhere on a blade that could have pure nickel in it. I have never been able to tighten a grouping any closer than 5 points HRC on anything with pure nickle content. I will not get into the usefulness of pure nickel in the steel as there are too many toes to step on, but my testing and observation puts me in the same corner as my friend Mr. Caffrey. Most curious to me is that with edge holding aside the impact toughness does not seem to go in the direction one would expect either. But the stuff certainly is pretty and, while it doesn't fly in my shop, with the number of knives out there being made from all manner of scrap and unknown steel, why should pure nickel be any more of a taboo, at least it is a known variable.

But back to my main point- as long as you have pure nickel in the mix, you don't need to bother with the Rockwell tests as they will mean nothing.
 
Kevin nailed it! I've looked at this thread a dozen times, trying to figure out how to answer it without sounds "uppity"....I have to agree with Kevin...nickel has no place in my shop when it comes to a knife blade.
 
I use 1095 and 15n20 damascus and the contrast is superb when etched, the 1095 hardens well and has great edge retention. I would call Brad, as I'm guessing he is selling something similar to this. The amount of nickel is 2% or less and really doesn't affect the edge.

my $.02

Steve
 
Steve,

Just to clarify, we're talking pure nickel. 15N20 is 1.5% nickel, but it is alloyed in with the steel. Basically 15N20 is 1075 with 1.5% nickel....totally different animal than pure nickel in a blade.
 
The spec sheet I got from Brad says:

(4) layers 5160 spring steel

(3) layers203E low carbon high impact High nickel mild steel alloy

(3) layers 52100 ball bearing steel

(3) layers 15N20 band saw blade material

I have been using Alabama Damascus for about 3 years now and I am happy with it's performance. There are harders steels but it holds up well.
 
Wow Mike....I find that combination of steels surprising. 203E is a non-hardening alloy, 5160 usually does not forge weld very well, and 52100 suffers dramatically from too much heat exposure.

Have you ever had cold shuts show up in any of the billets? Have any of them ever cracked during heat treating?

I'm not trying to be rude, but one thing I have always noticed about that particular variety of damascus is that the etch always appears a little "muddy"..... now that I know what the mix is, that explains it.

Again, please don't think I'm dogging the steel, I just find it surprising that they would choose to use those alloys because it can create a lot of issues.
 
EdCaffreyMS said:
Steve,

Just to clarify, we're talking pure nickel. 15N20 is 1.5% nickel, but it is alloyed in with the steel. Basically 15N20 is 1075 with 1.5% nickel....totally different animal than pure nickel in a blade.
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Good catch Ed! Heck as far as the element nickels presence, due to L6, I have been using nickel is the vast majority of my blades for many years:eek:. An entire matrix of just nickel atoms (as in nickel sheet) has little resistance to deformation, and absolutely will not accept carbon atoms*, so steel heat treatments mean nothing to it. However a predominantly iron matrix with nickle atoms alloyed into it (such as L6, 15n20 etc...) will have a higher toughness along with strength than a steel without it since those huge Ni atoms will distort the stacking and reinforce things without embrittlement.

* I have been privy to astonishing micrographs that show iron diffusion into nickel which then allows some level of carbon diffusion. Essentially alloying of the pure nickel layers. This is however on the order of a couple of microns so it is nothing to get too worked up about, but worth mentioning in order to point out that there are very few absolutes in this world.:confused:
 
EdCaffreyMS said:
...5160 usually does not forge weld very well...
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Have you found this too Ed? Anytime I have put 5160 into damascus the experience left me wondering why I would ever want to again, but I thought it was just me. The stuff seems ornery to weld, particularly to itself, and gives the most boring gray layers that always seem to etch out blotchy. I too do not mean to bag on any particular steel, but I have always kept my aversion to 5160 in damascus more to myself since I thought I was the only one that found it to be an issue.
 
I learned my lesson about welding 5160 many years ago. Before I knew any better, I was building tomahawks with a "wrapped" eye, then forge welding the wrap to produce the blade. Nearly every one of those hawks came back with the eye splitting. That's when I switch my methodology for building hawks.

Later I got the bright idea of making damascus out of 52100/5160....that was a complete train wreck! My conclusion is that while it's a great steel by itself, 5160 just doesn't play well with others, and I cringe whenever I hear/read about someone making damascus with it.
 
EdCaffreyMS said:
I learned my lesson about welding 5160 many years ago. Before I knew any better, I was building tomahawks with a "wrapped" eye, then forge welding the wrap to produce the blade. Nearly every one of those hawks came back with the eye splitting. That's when I switch my methodology for building hawks.

Later I got the bright idea of making damascus out of 52100/5160....that was a complete train wreck! My conclusion is that while it's a great steel by itself, 5160 just doesn't play well with others, and I cringe whenever I hear/read about someone making damascus with it.
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WOW! That is amazing, and funny, since I had the exact same issues with tomahawks and that steel! I found wrought, mild steel or even my normal damascus mix worked much better than forge welded 5160, which I ended up just stick welding closed for the guys who really liked the hawk that eventually popped at the eye just like yours.
 
Well I've decided to go ahead and try to use this blade. I was already about 90% through with it anyway, so I went ahead and fitted the liner lock and sharpened the blade. We will see how well it holds an edge. All I have to do is pick up some FC from radio shack so that I can re-etch the blade. I'll post some pics when I get through with it to show you guys how it turned out. I did mess up on the blade with my grinds, another lesson learned. I will point out what I did wrong when I post the pics.

The good side of this is that I will get to monitor the wear of the edge since this is my EDC. It won't be going out to anybody, and that's ok because I didn't intend for it to. The other blades that I was going to make from the remaining piece of the stock will be made from another piece of good damascus, and I will probably use the rest of this stuff for bolsters or shields.


Stay tuned for pics.
 
Here is the finished blade. The flaw I was talking about is how the bevel is ground too far up towards the pivot and is then covered up by the scales when fully open and locked. Lesson learned..I'll know better next time cool 1

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EdCaffreyMS said:
Wow Mike....I find that combination of steels surprising. 203E is a non-hardening alloy, 5160 usually does not forge weld very well, and 52100 suffers dramatically from too much heat exposure.

Have you ever had cold shuts show up in any of the billets? Have any of them ever cracked during heat treating?

I'm not trying to be rude, but one thing I have always noticed about that particular variety of damascus is that the etch always appears a little "muddy"..... now that I know what the mix is, that explains it.

Again, please don't think I'm dogging the steel, I just find it surprising that they would choose to use those alloys because it can create a lot of issues.
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Hmmm... Well I sure as hell aint no MS , or even a great maker YET. But I do know I've went through a couple hundred square inches of Brad's Damascus. Some on big hunters and some on small capers. I have NEVER seen a flaw in the steel. I have no idea what a "cold shut" is , but I'm sure you could probably see it. I have NEVER had a blade crack or warp during HT either. ALL of the customers I have sold these knives to have been more than happy with the performance of their knife. One fellow in particular uses his to skin coyotes and says " thats the best knife I've ever owned ".
The first one I made from this material was a hunter. I got it hair popping sharp and I was leery about damascus in general. So I did the 2X4 chopping thing , which was a workout with a 5" blade knife. After my arm wore out , about 3/4 of the way through , it was still shaving sharp. I then put it in the vice and bent to about 35 deg and it came right back. I figured it must be fairly good steel and moved on with it.
Maybe Brad found a way around the "issues" you talk about.
I had the pleasure of meeting him and visiting for a couple hours in Vegas a few years back. He seems very honest and genuine , and I dont think he would sell a faulty product.
By no means am I trying to be rude , just stating my experience with this steel.



Explain to me why this looks "muddy". As I said before I'm no expert , I want to learn all I can.
J S Machine said:
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Frank Niro said:
I'm just finishing one for myself as well. It has a random damascus blade with a bit of nickel that I know cuts like a good thing should that hass been etc hed and heat coloured almost a brown colour; bolsters of Seymchan meteorite; unmatched mammoth ivory from the bottom of the North Sea, one side with a tiny bit of gold and the other with some smears of silver; a back bar or spacer of 416 fileworked insibe as well as out, which has two small inlays of abalone and liners of .050 titanium with file work on both sides and then anodized. Well, I couldn't post a picture so I just wrote about it. Frank
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I'm glad you didn't post a pic...
'cause I have things to do today,and if you had a pic up,all I'd get done is to drool myself a big puddle ;)
 
Well, to clear one question, Brad DOES make a few billets with pure nickel included. I finally got around to buying one and am waiting for delivery. Yes the touch of pure nickel does help with the contrast in my opinion, and yes this is for looks. I can imagine that if you need every bit of cutting ability that can be obtained perhaps a single steel properly heat treated (and shaped) might do a better job than a Damascus one? Beauty can be function. Frank
 
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