Casey Brown
Well-Known Member
I'm preparing to try my first damascus billet using 1084 and 15n20. I know surface prep is critical. Any recommendations on layer stacking, surface finish, etc?
Damascus surface prep
- Thread starter Casey Brown
- Start date
Ray
Dealer - Purveyor
I clean off surface oxides to bare metal. Clean and free of grease or oil, etc. No "pockets" for flux to get trapped in.
When you do your first heat and weld, do it by hand. Strike down the center (longwise) of the billet first to make sure flux is out. On the next heat work outward from the center to the edges to continue driving out flux.
When you do your first heat and weld, do it by hand. Strike down the center (longwise) of the billet first to make sure flux is out. On the next heat work outward from the center to the edges to continue driving out flux.
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
First time outta the gate, and if it's by hand, I'd recommend cleaning the mill scale. A slight scarf on each piece is helpful too. One "trick" that I have discovered over the years is that IF you grind anything that's going to be stacked/forge welded, whether with belt or angle grinder, make the scratch lines run across the pieces.....this works like "capillary action" to drive out flux..... if you have scratches running lengthwise on the pieces, flux inclusions are much more likely.
There is also a significant difference depending on the "flux" you choose. Run of the mill 20 mule team borax has a high moisture content, and will "boil" and fall off before it has a chance to melt. Anhydrous borax is my flux of choice..... it's a much more pure version of borax, with the moisture removed, It melts and looks like a thick coating of honey on a hot billet, and doesn't "boil off". Because it stays there, it's a much better cleaner/Oxygen barrier then regular 20 mule team.
I'm assuming it's by hand, so I'd recommend starting with a simple stack of maybe 10-12 layers, in a single altered stack (1 piece 1084, 1 piece of 15N20, and so on). If you have a stick or MIG welder, clamp the stack tightly and weld across the edges in 3 even spaced places on each side. LEAVE THE ENDS OPEN..... a big mistake most beginners make is to weld the ends....this prevents flux from escaping that way, and often causes flux inclusions. Also, you have to remember that if you only stick or MIG weld the ends, or ends of the edge, the steel will expand when heated, and the middle will bow out, making it nearly impossible to weld/work with.
Weld a "handle" on one end..... it's tough enough to weld successfully the first time, don't handicap yourself by having to use tongs. When you weld, start from the end nearest you, and work your way to the other end...... that way you don't spray yourself with hot flux.
If you don't have the ability to stick or MIG, and intend on using "wire"....that's a tough one too......wire is no different then the steel itself..... you can wrap/twist it tightly before you heat the billet, but when heated, the wire will expand too, and can be a difficult mess to deal with.
When it comes to heating the billet, heat it to a orange to bright orange before applying flux. Apply flux when the billet it too cold, only waste flux, and doesn't get it between the layers were it can do it's job.
Personally, I don't even place a damascus billets into the forge, until the forge is at 2350F. My philosophy is that I can refine grain growth through thermal cycling, but if I have welds that were too cold, all I have is a "glue job", that WILL cause me grief.....and be very difficult to repair. I tend to work most damascus billets at welding heat, just for the reason I mentioned.
Good luck! Let us know how it goes!
There is also a significant difference depending on the "flux" you choose. Run of the mill 20 mule team borax has a high moisture content, and will "boil" and fall off before it has a chance to melt. Anhydrous borax is my flux of choice..... it's a much more pure version of borax, with the moisture removed, It melts and looks like a thick coating of honey on a hot billet, and doesn't "boil off". Because it stays there, it's a much better cleaner/Oxygen barrier then regular 20 mule team.
I'm assuming it's by hand, so I'd recommend starting with a simple stack of maybe 10-12 layers, in a single altered stack (1 piece 1084, 1 piece of 15N20, and so on). If you have a stick or MIG welder, clamp the stack tightly and weld across the edges in 3 even spaced places on each side. LEAVE THE ENDS OPEN..... a big mistake most beginners make is to weld the ends....this prevents flux from escaping that way, and often causes flux inclusions. Also, you have to remember that if you only stick or MIG weld the ends, or ends of the edge, the steel will expand when heated, and the middle will bow out, making it nearly impossible to weld/work with.
Weld a "handle" on one end..... it's tough enough to weld successfully the first time, don't handicap yourself by having to use tongs. When you weld, start from the end nearest you, and work your way to the other end...... that way you don't spray yourself with hot flux.
If you don't have the ability to stick or MIG, and intend on using "wire"....that's a tough one too......wire is no different then the steel itself..... you can wrap/twist it tightly before you heat the billet, but when heated, the wire will expand too, and can be a difficult mess to deal with.
When it comes to heating the billet, heat it to a orange to bright orange before applying flux. Apply flux when the billet it too cold, only waste flux, and doesn't get it between the layers were it can do it's job.
Personally, I don't even place a damascus billets into the forge, until the forge is at 2350F. My philosophy is that I can refine grain growth through thermal cycling, but if I have welds that were too cold, all I have is a "glue job", that WILL cause me grief.....and be very difficult to repair. I tend to work most damascus billets at welding heat, just for the reason I mentioned.
Good luck! Let us know how it goes!
Casey Brown
Well-Known Member
As always, thanks for the replies. I will be able to get access to a welder, and will be able to weld up the stack. This will really be a learning experience for me. I don't know how confident I am that I'll be able to make this work by hand, but I'm going to give it a shot and see what happens.
Here is what I have, and what I was thinking. Please steer me back from the cliff if I start getting too close. My 1084 is .25", and my 15n20 is .1". They are both 1 1/4" wide. I was going to start out using 2 layers of 15n20 for every layer of 1084. If I do 5 layers of 1084, and 10 layers of 15n20, that would be a stack 2.25" thick and 1.25" wide. A 1" long piece of this stack would be volume-wise equivalent to a 9" piece of 1 1/4" x 1/4" piece of stock, a 2" long stack would equal 18", etc. I'm sure I'll loose some volume from decarb, but hopefully it would put me in the ballpark. Would you recommend a 3" long stack of this mixture to start out with? That would give me a decent length billet to play with and make at least a knife or two out of it.
Here is what I have, and what I was thinking. Please steer me back from the cliff if I start getting too close. My 1084 is .25", and my 15n20 is .1". They are both 1 1/4" wide. I was going to start out using 2 layers of 15n20 for every layer of 1084. If I do 5 layers of 1084, and 10 layers of 15n20, that would be a stack 2.25" thick and 1.25" wide. A 1" long piece of this stack would be volume-wise equivalent to a 9" piece of 1 1/4" x 1/4" piece of stock, a 2" long stack would equal 18", etc. I'm sure I'll loose some volume from decarb, but hopefully it would put me in the ballpark. Would you recommend a 3" long stack of this mixture to start out with? That would give me a decent length billet to play with and make at least a knife or two out of it.
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
Something I neglected to mention...... When you stick or MIG weld a billet... make SURE that after you forge weld all the layer together.... COMPLETELY remove all of the stick or MIG filler material from the billet. ANY of it left behind will show up in the end product as ugly gray globs.
The reason that I suggested 1 to 1 stacking is because some folks have difficulty welding 15N20 to itself, however, it's dirt simple to weld 15N20 to 1084.
Even with the size stack you mentioned, it's gona be work. The "work" part comes when you try to draw a stack like that out, and get it ready to restack. Assuming you get it drawn out, don't "fold"...... draw it out, grind both side off clean, then cut, and restack it. Chances for success are much higher then with "folding".
I know everyone wants to make a damascus knife..... but don't look so far ahead that you loose site of the nearer objective... learning to create the material. Just to give you some idea.....my very first try at making damascus took me nearly two weeks, and when it was all said and done, I had a piece of 312 layer, about the size of a silver dollar, with all kinds of voids and cold shuts. Sounds like a failure? I took that chunk to my first ever visit to the Blade Show, and showed it to Bill Moran, Steve Schwarzer, and some other Mastersmiths...... and used it to inquire about what I had done wrong, and how I could "get better"........ it showed them that I was serious about making damascus, and opened the door for all kinds of advice/help. Armed with the advice I'd received, I kept at it, and after a several more attempts, finally figured out what I was doing.
I think it's important to say..... this is a learned skill. So don't get down if it doesn't come out right the very first time. Failures are how we learn. I've been learning damascus for almost 3 decades, and there's always a new twist to each billet I make.
The reason that I suggested 1 to 1 stacking is because some folks have difficulty welding 15N20 to itself, however, it's dirt simple to weld 15N20 to 1084.
Even with the size stack you mentioned, it's gona be work. The "work" part comes when you try to draw a stack like that out, and get it ready to restack. Assuming you get it drawn out, don't "fold"...... draw it out, grind both side off clean, then cut, and restack it. Chances for success are much higher then with "folding".
I know everyone wants to make a damascus knife..... but don't look so far ahead that you loose site of the nearer objective... learning to create the material. Just to give you some idea.....my very first try at making damascus took me nearly two weeks, and when it was all said and done, I had a piece of 312 layer, about the size of a silver dollar, with all kinds of voids and cold shuts. Sounds like a failure? I took that chunk to my first ever visit to the Blade Show, and showed it to Bill Moran, Steve Schwarzer, and some other Mastersmiths...... and used it to inquire about what I had done wrong, and how I could "get better"........ it showed them that I was serious about making damascus, and opened the door for all kinds of advice/help. Armed with the advice I'd received, I kept at it, and after a several more attempts, finally figured out what I was doing.
I think it's important to say..... this is a learned skill. So don't get down if it doesn't come out right the very first time. Failures are how we learn. I've been learning damascus for almost 3 decades, and there's always a new twist to each billet I make.
Ray
Dealer - Purveyor
Metals with nickel (15N20) are called "red hard" by some, meaning that they don't move as easily as plain tool steel. As you forge, the 1084 will get thinner and the 15N20 will not - as quickly. Repeated forging and working will cause the 15N20 to become more dominate visually. I use 0.250in. 1084 and 0.030in. 15N20.
At 288 layers, this is what that combination looks like. The more folds, the more the 15N20 will dominate.
Casey Brown
Well-Known Member
Good to know on both points. I'm looking forward to trying this out. I usually go into each new technique expecting to fail the first time, so if it goes halfway decent, I'll be happy and wanting to try again!
Casey Brown
Well-Known Member
Probably biting off more than I can chew.
mike miller
KNIFE MAKER
You want to finish with a thick piece on both sides , bottom and top.
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
Ditto to what Mike said.
Self Made Knives
Well-Known Member
I'm itching to try this too Casey, so I'm watching closely! Hey Ed, about the borax. Would the 20 mule flavor be better if you kept it close to the forge and maybe dry it out? I literally just bought a box last night at Wally World, lol.
Casey Brown
Well-Known Member
I just ordered some anhydrous borax from Centaur Forge for $12.95/lb.
C. Killgore
Well-Known Member
I've been using anhydrous borax for years as well. I've always ordered from Rose Mill. 25lb bucket for $70 + shipping.
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
Just a hint to get Anhydrous cheaper..... ceramics or mining supply stores. Last bag I got from Seattle pottery....... 100lb bag for $82.00. That's about 2-3 years worth for me.
Anthony: The only way to dry out 20 mule team is to bake it, on a cookie sheet in the oven at 350F until it's cured..... a cookie sheet usually takes about 3 hours. The down side it that it will be a solid clump, and you'll basically have to "grind" it up into a powder to be usable. I did it years ago, before anyhydrous was known to me. I got the idea from one a Alex Bealer's books on blacksmithing.
Anthony: The only way to dry out 20 mule team is to bake it, on a cookie sheet in the oven at 350F until it's cured..... a cookie sheet usually takes about 3 hours. The down side it that it will be a solid clump, and you'll basically have to "grind" it up into a powder to be usable. I did it years ago, before anyhydrous was known to me. I got the idea from one a Alex Bealer's books on blacksmithing.
Last edited:
@EdCaffreyMS : You ever thought of writing a book? These tips are priceless. I haven’t graduated to the forge yet but I’m copying and pasting all these for future reference!
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
At one time the intent was to someday write a book..... but then my son Tim came along and talked me into KnifeMakerTraining.com.
Casey Brown
Well-Known Member
Here's an update. My forge weld went pretty well. Have a small delam on one side. Going to do one more forge weld to try to close it.
Daniel Macina
Well-Known Member
Looks like it welded up great! Congratulations!
Casey Brown
Well-Known Member
Thanks! I was pretty happy with it for a first try at forge welding. Hopefully I can close the delam with one more weld. Drawing it out is going to be a chore, though.
Casey Brown
Well-Known Member
Well, I broke the weld while trying to stretch out the billet. Back to the drawing board. May be too thick to start out by hand? Not sure why it broke.