Can you use this instead of Heat treat foil?

Alden Cole

Alden Cole

Well-Known Member
I'm guessing you guys are probably getting tired of my questions! Just know there are more where this one came from. When I bought my 2x72 grinder, the owner was kind enough to throw in some Brownells anti scale compound. Does this work as a replacement of heat treat foil? Thank you again!bob.jpg
 
I've never used it Alden but I believe it works. The only person I personally know that uses it uses it for folder blades.
I think the reason you don't hear of more people using it is...cost and application process, I know if you don't get a good coating on you may get pitting on the blade.
where as, using foil is fast, easy and usually problem free. one thing I've learned using foil over the years is dusting my blades with talcum powder to keep the foil from sticking sometimes.
 
Thank you! I guess that while using the ATP is fine it would probably be better to use foil. I also found that you can't thermal cycle with this, while you can with foil. Thanks for the tip too
 
Ember Knives said:
I'm guessing you guys are probably getting tired of my questions! Just know there are more where this one came from. When I bought my 2x72 grinder, the owner was kind enough to throw in some Brownells anti scale compound. Does this work as a replacement of heat treat foil? Thank you again!View attachment 72610
Click to expand...


I've used it on carbon steel, and it works at least OK. Not perfect. Kinda a pain to apply. And you have to clean it off later. Also on carbon steel I question what it might do to my quench oil.


YMMV
 
I've not used the ATP-641 anti scale coating. In the past I'd always used roach poison for carbon steel with good results. A gentleman called "Rat Pack" has a website https://bellablades.com/ that talks about using dry graphite for coating. Look toward bottom of page for link

I have quenched a couple of RR spike knife using the dry graphite as coating. The RR spike knife was soaked for 5 minutes at 1500F in oven, quenched in plain water. I didn't include photo since you've well documented using dry graphite with high carbon, but the result is smooth with no scale at all. This is the product I used 'n ordered from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0094IZ3BA Back when I ordered in Feb, 2020 the can was $5.23 including taxes shipped, but now I see price has increased a good bit $13 or so?

Yesterday (Sunday) got around to HT'ing an AEB-L and 14C28N coupons using the dry graphite as protection rather than SS foil. The 2 coupons were both clean ground to 120 grit prior to coating with two fairly heavy coats of dry graphite and dried overnight.

1925-F-AEB-L.jpg

The coupon above is AEB-L and soaked at 1925 for 5 minutes shown as it came from aluminum quench plates. From what I can tell it's as smooth as before HT with no scale I can tell, no pitting or anything.

As-Quenched.jpg

The square coupon above is 14C28N soaked for 8 minutes at 1950F, the coupon on right is the AEB-L coupon in first photo. As expected the 1925F coupon is lower 58 Rc value due to the low temp used. I was pleasantly surprised with the 14C28N coupon at 63 Rc. Both where clean ground with 120 grit on 2X72 grinder.

As-Quenched-2.jpg

Above is the other side of the two coupons where I ground with 120 grit on 2X72 for a clean surface for Rc testing. While this is NOT a valid scientific test, it's enough I'll be using Dry Graphite for my next SS knife blades for more testing. I profile only before HT'ing with bevels ground post HT.
 
I have tried a couple heat treat dips. I still use foil but would like to see a dip that works as well as foil every time. I read the tests KenH posted a link to. These are interesting in they show some potential. I may try a few test coupons with this.

My experience with dips on SS is this: sometimes it works perfectly, other times it flakes a bit here and there that creates a blotch of decarb that basically ruins the blade for me. I have not tested carbon steel formulas, only stainless which is quite a bit higher in temps. Cost of foil is about a dollar or two depending on blade size. Cost of some dips (maybe most?) per use is less than foil and that is appealing. Add in the occasional fail of dips with a ruined blade is a deal breaker for me.

Removing a dip varies. Some dips you boil off in water, some say soap and water and others you have to grind off. I am not at all interested in grinding off a dip. It’s not worth using a dip that you have to grind off - for me. I have used some that were supposed to rinse off easily. They all didn’t rinse off easily and I ended up having to regrind the blade. You can get around all this I suppose by grinding after heat treat.
 
I agree completely if a dip fails from time to time it's not worth it. I'd start with SS foil. In the overall scheme of things $2/blade isn't all that much. I've read for a full sized knife it will have $50 or more of just material in cost, and that's just for simple steels and handle materials. Some handle material costs as much as I normally sell my chef knives for, so $2 for foil isn't a deal breaker, BUT - a ruined blade from time to time is a deal breaker.

This spray on dry graphite seems to work good. I've only tested 1 full blade and 3 SS coupons, and they were with success. The only way I've found to remove the coating is grinding, it's thin coat like a thin coat of paint. Actually thinner than paint because the graphite seems to measure somewhere around .0005" to .0007" per both sides (increases thickness of blade by this amount). Grinding graphite off after HT isn't an issue for me since I do all my grinding post HT anyway so that removes the coat. Oh, grinding to remove the graphite is about like removing the color after HT'ing in foil, so not much difference.

I'm VERY interested in other folks trying this to see if it really does work reliability everytime, or if there will be a failure from time to time.
 
Foil is still the best. I use heat sink/air cooled steels, and any build up coating on the surface would hinder the aluminum plates from doing their job.

Admittedly, I don’t heat treat treat my blades. I was all set to build a heat treat oven...even purchased some of the electronics. But when I weighed cost of the bricks/steel/refractory cement, etc.., and my limited space, just made more sense to continue having Peters do it. Over the years I developed a good back & forth with Brad over there. He knows precisely the recipe the “One Armed Knifemaker” wants, LOL!

Because I do not rely on knifemaking for money, I simply don’t make enough knives each year to necessitate my own oven.
 
I used that TPI once and was very pleased. I have no experience with folders, but made a replacement blade for an old lock-back folder that had sentimental value. I used 1084. I have no oven and consequently have never delved into stainless. Since I was kind of going in blind, I wanted to be sure that once I had the fit right I wouldn't lose any thickness due to decarb. So I coated the blade and heat teated as usual. It came out great with no signs of decarb. I'm not sure but I think it cleaned off easy. But that's just one experience, and who knows I might have had a little beginners luck, too.
 
I've used Turco on low alloy steels. It doesn't leave a finish that won't need ground, but I think it does limit actual carbon loss, as the resultant layer isn't rock hard scale like a naked blade is.
 
I did a little test piece with ATP 641 and it looks ok.20200405_172750.jpg I also wrapped a knife in foil and it also looks fine other than some weird coloring. They are both D2.
 
Alden, what temperature and how long did you soak? That "weird coloring" is just from heat and is normal.
 
I used the temps that nj steel baron supplied, 1200 for 10, 1400 for 10, 1850 for 30. I don't have Al plates yet, so I just quenched in air. I figured that would still be fine, although not ideal, as many people have ht'd D2 in still air for a long time.
 
I wasn't sure what the temp used for D2 was - I've never used D2. At 1850F it's almost up to SS temps. Sounds like it's going to work just fine.
 
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