Burning on my first handle...

M

malignity

Well-Known Member
I'm making a nostalgia knife for a friend which has a very asymmetrical blade, requiring the handle to be burned on.

I'm using a 2" x2" piece of Pucte, and I keep getting minor cracks
Two hours of burning and its only half way on also. I laid out the initial shape with heat and drilled a series of holes inside the shape so I'd have less to burn, but I'm having a heck of a time. I've scrapped 3 so far because of cracking. Supposedly kiln dried, purchased at Woodcraft.

Any help or suggestions?
 
You mentioned a major problem with burning on handles.....the charring/cracking. Buring on a handle doesn't work with every type of wood.....its mostly done with woods such as maple, hickory and some varieties of oak. Most of the exotic woods are so full of resins that they simply will not tolerate "burning on".

The other necessity is that the handle hole must be "close" to the correct size....within fractions of an inch.

Generally I discourage the practice of burning on handles, simply because there are so many things that can, and often do go wrong.
 
Newbie question, Why burn on a handle? Why not just drill one step over the tang an use epoxy?
 
That would be next to impossible. The blade is made from an antique scythe blade, and thus is asymmetrical with an S shaped spine. It chops very well, but making a hidden tang handle for something like that is tough. I mean, I guess I could bore out the whole thing and pack it full of epoxy, but would that even hold in a chopper? Maybe if I JB welded it? It'll get pinned too.

I switched to a cherry wood, and it seems to be burning a lot faster. If hickory and maple work too, thank you for the heads up. This has been a tedious process and I've already split 4 handles. Once it's done, it'll be the last handle I make this way I think.
 
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Yeah, I think I'd change the shape of the tang a bit so it would fit better. Or redesign my handle so I could drill the tang and epoxy it in.

Good quality epoxy would be MUCH stronger than any wood you could put around the tang. I wouldn't just wallow out an unnecessarily oversized hole and dump a bunch of epoxy in there. I'd take my time and carefully shape the tang and drill/broach out the correct size slot.

Make yourself a broach out of a sawzall blade. It's a lot easier than you might think. I think burning handles on was something that was done mostly for lack of better tools/ways to do it. It would be my absolute last resort for a handle......and even then I think I'd find a better way.
 
Jon, I've followed most of your recent threads here and I think this could help you out. This is a resource that one of our members who goes by 'The Count' compiled. He took a TON of time compiling and updating all of this info and pretty much covers everything from start to finish on knives, including making tools and equipment, heat treat, suppliers list videos and tutorials on pretty much everything and it's good reliable info.

It's a lot of material but it's indexed nice so it's easy to navigate. It might answer a lot of questions for you.

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V38

Answers to a student are different than to machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community;fill out your profile with (Country, State, City), age, education, work and hobbies so we get a sense of who you are.

Basics
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-PDF
http://jubilee101.com/subscription/p...---12pages.pdf

Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=694673

Things I Advise New Makers Against-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/ar...w1/scales1.htm
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...metal-with-you
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...gral-tag-along

Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=43

BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=603203

Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, organized, available inexpensive.


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elem...00palmrich.pdf

The Complete Practical Machinist-1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/ite...00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save

The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
Great title, but NOT gospel.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind (stock removal)

"Goop Quench" is Bullsh*t
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for 1084

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel
Good heat treat needs accurate temperature control and full quench
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola

Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web


Video

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.archive.org/download/gov....vnb1_512kb.mp4

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeS...afetyVideo.wmv

Many videos are available, some better than others

The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
Paul Long's sheath work & videos are recommended, but advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching

Green Pete's Free Video
Make a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat
Use a piece of known 1084 steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools
"Green Pete" posted it free
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too – search knifemaking torrents

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4995...ushcraft_Knife

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some good, some bad, expect to wait months and there have been no new videos in years.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking


Knife Design:
Think thin, small, simple and fixed
Forget swords, 1/4” thick stock, saw-teeth, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife

Look at hundreds of photos
Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=603203

Bob Engnath Patterns PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx

http://knifemaking.altervista.org/index_disegni_en.html

Start with a drawing and post it before you work on steel, we love photos and can comment before you start
French curves, graph paper and erasers are vital tools
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tW...ch%2BCurve.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...0#post13120810

Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such
Use playdough to shape a handle, good handles are not flat

http://versteegblades.com/knife-handle-design/

How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...on-BladeForums



Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives
Buy new known 1/8” annealed blade steel
Forget lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use known good steel
You will spend more money on sandpaper or soda pop than you will for steel

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, Elmax plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160
His telephone service is better than his website.

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...84&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating $10 or $15 for perfect results

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs
http://www.buckknives.com/about-knives/heat-treating/
[url]http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services [/URL]

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
[url]http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html [/URL]
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

1095 is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment to HT themselves
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...ee-steel-types

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget Goop Quench and Motor oil

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type
Explanation and classification oil speeds
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?...g-II-Quenching

Grocery store canola oil works well -if you use the right steel like 1084

Brine and water are cheap for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095, but use fast oils Parks 50 & Houghton Houghto Quench K
If you use water or brine, expect broken blades

Hot steel beats plastic, Don't quench in plastic pail

Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min high strength epoxy to attach handles and seal out moisture
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work
prep, measure, mix are key in gluing.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best
Ensure the surface is clean including fingerprints, wear vinyl or nitrile gloves
Use Acetone or Blasting
Don't over-clamp.A “glue starved joint” is weak

West Systems G Flex http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/
Find it locally http://www.westsystem.com/ss/where-to-buy/
Brownell's Acraglas
JB Weld-leaves a grey line


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it by hand with files and abrasive like the Green Pete video.
Use 1084 instead of a file, spheroid annealed steel is butter soft

Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...7#post11983527

Filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesP...n/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8...2b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330

Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
Tracking problems are usually solved with belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder
Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop...ues-3/grinders


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
There are some things that need to be modified
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=62944
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_e...VMTFVJMDQ/edit

NWG No Weld Grinder $25 plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-t...-50-pages.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
Every maker has a preference, new belts come out all the time, search for recent info
Ceramic, trizact and structured belts are expensive and have long life. Aluminium oxide are cheap and wear quickly
Some belts have rigid backing, J-flex have soft backing and can blend curves.
Blaze and Cubitron are popular


VFD Variable Speed made simple

Step pulleys are not as cheap as you think
Maska steel pulleys, plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to 1/2 the price of a sealed NEMA 4 VFD like a KB Electronics KBAC-27D

I like direct drive with no belts, a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with fine instant control.

NEMA 1 VFD’s metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.


Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use 1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a foot base for the KMG and NWG, a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with $100 shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors

The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.


VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variabl...s_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.

There are cheaper, but the only VFD I found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D

It is NEMA 4 sealed
Good community and company support, manuals, diagrams, photos and settings.

Travis W reports running 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


Safety Equipment
Protect -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.

If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.

Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't Count.

The minimum I use are silicone half masks with P100 Filter
The soft silicone masks fit better
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...n=CH7500FP.pdf

and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-7.../dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100..._bxgy_hi_img_b.

Use VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes of face get fitted in person

Shave, test the fit every time.

For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Search

This searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=01...%3Aqfobr3dlcra

Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...4#post11980504

Visit a shop in person
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...hed-knifemaker
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...-a-shop-invite
 
Thank you J.Doyle! I appreciate it. That'll keep me busy. A broach is exactly what I needed. I tried using my milling bits but they aren't nearly long enough.

Thanks again.
 
I can vouch for the newbie list J.Doyle shares with us that dive in and are trying and with alot of listening and following the advice and at times gruff nuturing we learn and progress.
I second the pics can get you more help idea.
 
Just got into reading and watching some of the major videos.

I totally see why J. Doyle posted the "Don't be this guy" video.

Minus the video games and the name calling, I was pretty much that guy. J.D. only lives about 20 minutes from me. Lol
 
Just for a thought I never completely burn in a handle. Drill to a close shape and then finish the install by burning in, if necessary ! Come to think of it I haven't burnt one in since the very first one I tried and realized it was a PITA. John gave you good advice! Like Ed said, a lot of woods do not like the heat generated by burning on in. The handle has to be heated many times and the wood gets so hot it will crack. As you experienced!

You can buy them (broaches) thru several sources, just google knife broaches. Or you can make your own broaches. These are made from an old Hickory butcher knives! Cut the rough shape with a cutting wheel on a dremel and the finish shape with a grinder. Keep it cool while you are finish shaping and be sure to leave enough area to cut in your teeth, and you are good to go!!

I bought both of these original knives from yard sales or flee markets for about a $1.00! They both started life like this.

5481_zpszwbwgnlm.jpg


The top one was made for an asymmetrical handle, this is a shape that is commonly used with many knives.

Pics%202015%20159_zpsymmwvvpq.jpg


The bottom one is just a straight broach.
 
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malignity said:
Just got into reading and watching some of the major videos.

I totally see why J. Doyle posted the "Don't be this guy" video.

Minus the video games and the name calling, I was pretty much that guy. J.D. only lives about 20 minutes from me. Lol
Click to expand...

HaHa. I just saw this. I actually hadn't ever watched that video but just did to see what you meant. The Count posted all that stuff and I just copied and pasted it here as I knew there was some good info.

As to me posting that for you, I have to refer to the standard movie/tv show quote in the credits:

"All characters appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."

:D
 
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