Another mill minimum question

A

Absinthe

Well-Known Member
I am seeing Sherline come up for sale used, and they seem to be small. It is also odd that they don't have a proper quill, so I assume you have to drill with a wheel.

I am also seeing the old Emco/Unimat combination lathe and mill come up.

Understanding the weight issue, are these sufficient to do they types of milling required for knife making? Has anyone had success with them?

I am just looking at doing folders, so I am looking at working with bolsters, scales, liners. Boring liner/scale spring and pivot holes. Relieving scales/liners. Perhaps the locking notch on a lock back blade, or the race on a flipper. Perhaps sizing pins, making Loveless and Corby fasteners or some bushings. Perhaps the occasional jimping or precursor spring file(burr)work?

I am not considering milling out a bevel, or even a knife blank from a billet.

I know having a Bridgeport would be the thing to do. That will definitely not be happening.
The Sieg level comes next, and FWIW they all seem 6 of 1 half a dozen for the other. I do like the LMS high torque. However, I can easily spend quite a bit in tooling to go with them before I can actually do something useful.

The Sherline seem like they are smaller than the Sieg flavor, but they are USA made, and I can have a fairly nice tooling package along with the cnc-ready or base model for about the same as one the Sieg machines alone. There seems to be all the stuff you could imagine for the big mills made and available for these. And they seem to be either cnc-ready or cnc-convertable.

The Unimat's just appeal to my gee-whizz side! And most of the ones I see out there come with a fair amount of tooling, at least enough to secure something. I am not sure if the Z is only operated via the handle.

Not sure where the Proxxons fit in her, but the consensus I keep seeing is that they are overpriced for what they are.

So, other than "bigger is always better" any opinions in the smaller areas?
 
I'm looking for a Mill myself. I've been doing a ton of research but have no actual experience using a mill.

Out of curiosity what is your price point? Maybe my research can help.
 
CDHumiston said:
I'm looking for a Mill myself. I've been doing a ton of research but have no actual experience using a mill.

Out of curiosity what is your price point? Maybe my research can help.
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Price point is "as little as possible, to get enough to be sufficient". And that isn't really as smart @$$ of an answer as it sounds. At this point, I don't have a budget for it, since I spent pretty much all I intended on the bend grinder, and HT furnace. So, if there is something I can do inexpensively, great, otherwise, I need to save up. And tooling is definitely a necessary consideration.
 
I'm experimenting with a drill press conversion with a twist. Found a very cheap and very solid drill to do this conversion with. I'll do a video once I get it sorted. Wish me luck, it's a bit of a crazy plan.
 
Smurf masher said:
I'm experimenting with a drill press conversion with a twist. Found a very cheap and very solid drill to do this conversion with. I'll do a video once I get it sorted. Wish me luck, it's a bit of a crazy plan.
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The (common) problem with a drill press is that the chuck is held in with a morse taper and lacks a draw bar. This leads to the chuck and all that is attached ejecting itself when the slightest lateral force is applied.

People have tried drilling an access hole down the center of the quill to place a draw bar, but most times these are quite thin and don't allow for a good thickness of draw bar.

A trick that some have tried is to cool the morse taper either just in the freezer or perhaps a cooling agent like one might use for cryo then heating up the quill and driving the cooled taper into the heated quill. AvE on youtube discusses this technique and even implements it once while trying to convert a drill to a mill. It worked okay in his prototyping, but later when he tries it again it didn't do as well and he resorted to using CA (super glue) and that seemed to keep the chuck in the quill.

The drill press that I have, the person who had it before me claimed that all he used it for ever was milling. When the chuck eventually failed on me with broken teeth I had to beat the heck out of the morse taper removal tool to get it out. I don't think it was glued in place, but it may have been heat-and-seated. It was really in there like crazy. I never did figure out what the guy did that allowed him to mill with it. Since, however, I replace the chuck, I can't apply any side pressure to it short of perhaps an occasional wire wheel without it puking the morse taper. So though it may be possible, it will take some thought.

That is the common consideration. Stiffness, runout, squareness and so forth are other considerations. Let me know what you figure out.

 
Absinthe said:
The (common) problem with a drill press is that the chuck is held in with a morse taper and lacks a draw bar. This leads to the chuck and all that is attached ejecting itself when the slightest lateral force is applied.

People have tried drilling an access hole down the center of the quill to place a draw bar, but most times these are quite thin and don't allow for a good thickness of draw bar.

A trick that some have tried is to cool the morse taper either just in the freezer or perhaps a cooling agent like one might use for cryo then heating up the quill and driving the cooled taper into the heated quill. AvE on youtube discusses this technique and even implements it once while trying to convert a drill to a mill. It worked okay in his prototyping, but later when he tries it again it didn't do as well and he resorted to using CA (super glue) and that seemed to keep the chuck in the quill.

The drill press that I have, the person who had it before me claimed that all he used it for ever was milling. When the chuck eventually failed on me with broken teeth I had to beat the heck out of the morse taper removal tool to get it out. I don't think it was glued in place, but it may have been heat-and-seated. It was really in there like crazy. I never did figure out what the guy did that allowed him to mill with it. Since, however, I replace the chuck, I can't apply any side pressure to it short of perhaps an occasional wire wheel without it puking the morse taper. So though it may be possible, it will take some thought.

That is the common consideration. Stiffness, runout, squareness and so forth are other considerations. Let me know what you figure out.

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Yep. Love that guys shitty mill vids, very useful, and he's funny. I've found a drill that doesn't use a morse taper but uses a milling taper, and with some custom mods I can use it with solid lateral force pulling on it. It seems to good to be true, but to test it out it's only going to cost me a bit of time and about 200 quid. I'm using the same proxxon compound table as AVE, after watching his vid it seemed perfect. I will only get 6" of cutting on the x and less on the y but it's good enough for what I want. (flat facing billets etc) the proxon kit is good quality, and I've seen far too many videos showing that chinese cross tables are about as accurate as my fist, and nearly every table i find to buy is a rebadged chinese table. I wanted something with a bit more oprecision, and the proxxon seems better out of the box, (although aluminium is not ideal)

"That is the common consideration. Stiffness, runout, squareness and so forth are other considerations. Let me know what you figure out."

This thing will be solid steel bore nearly an inch thick. I reckon it will be pretty damn good, but we will see once I get it assembled. I've ordered parts from a machine shop in sheffield to machine the parts to my design. It cost me £120

I'm thinking about patenting it as a mod kit. Is it possble to patent mods like this if it works? I mean I think I have a solution that gives you a way more solid mill than a crap chinese mini mill which costs £1500 and my test device will cost about £600.
 
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Smurf masher said:
Yep. Love that guys shitty mill vids, very useful, and he's funny. I've found a drill that doesn't use a morse taper but uses a milling taper, and with some custom mods I can use it with solid lateral force pulling on it. It seems to good to be true, but to test it out it's only going to cost me a bit of time and about 200 quid.

"That is the common consideration. Stiffness, runout, squareness and so forth are other considerations. Let me know what you figure out."

This thing will be solid steel bore nearly an inch thick. I reckon it will be pretty damn good, but we will see once I get it assembled. I've ordered parts from a machine shop in sheffield to machine the parts to my design. It cost me £120

I'm thinking about patenting it as a mod kit. Is it possble to patent mods like this if it works? I mean I think I have a solution that gives you a way more solid mill than a crap chinese mini mill which costs £1500 and my test device will cost about £600.
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Have to check with your patent office. Generally there are 5 tests for patent"ability" and if something meets those specifications you can pay to apply for the patent...

New,
Novel,
Inventive,
Useful,
No prior use.

But ask your patent attorney laws in your country may differ.
 
Absinthe said:
Have to check with your patent office. Generally there are 5 tests for patent"ability" and if something meets those specifications you can pay to apply for the patent...

New,
Novel,
Inventive,
Useful,
No prior use.

But ask your patent attorney laws in your country may differ.
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I've got a meeting with them for free (subsidised by the UK gov) I have no idea if it fits the criteria yet.
 
Smurf masher said:
On another topic.. why are 2x72 grinders so damn expensive? They look simple as hell to make.
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They are simple enough machines. However between the materials and the motor you are quickly over $1000.

You can make them with lesser materials, or a lesser motor.

Many people have made their own using adjustable speed DC motors from treadmills. These tend not to be shielded from dust and tend not to last long. People have also used freely available weight lifting benches to overcome the material costs. Some people aren't good welders.

Most times you can get a good frame in the $400-$500 range.

Then there is the issue of wheels. There tends to be a desire for the machine to run true and not throw the belt. For some this means machined aluminum wheels. For others glass filled nylon would suffice. While others don't mind polyurethane for idlers so they use skate wheels.

Then you deal with the fact that most of the mfgs are something akin to a guy in his garage, hand fabricating everything one by one. Or a big industrial company making things to satisfy OSHA specs and selling to large corporations that order left to right.

To sling the belt around at speeds that will make you happy you need about 1hp per inch of width. However anything AC above 1.5 HP will draw too many amps so you end up with 220 or better. But if you want it to be variable speed without a pulley stack you need to go 3 phase, and that requires an inverter or other device to change the cycles. This gets your motor costs up a bit as well since you can't use the normal 1/4 - 3/4 motors that are so plentiful.

As I understand, however they don't do 2x72 in England the big size there is 2x60. There is a maker on YouTube from there that made that claim as he was showing how to diy a 2x60 it might be one of the wooden versions I don't remember.

You can make your own cheaper than buying it, but since the folks that make them are logging serious man-hours rather than being able to mass produce to meet a high demand, you are paying for a humans time.
 
"You can make your own cheaper than buying it, but since the folks that make them are logging serious man-hours rather than being able to mass produce to meet a high demand, you are paying for a humans time."

I think thats the big take away. These things are pretty niche, (hobby sized) so we end up in a similar situation to disabled people who pay through the nose for equipment that suits their needs as they are are a smaller demographic, and these things are not made in a mass production.

I'm not sure.. I was a bit freaked out by this "https://www.amazon.co.uk/VEVOR-Grin...al&sprefix=vevor+grinder,industrial,67&sr=1-4"

When I found out it didnt even have an off switch, and often blew breakers when it turned on, and used non standard belts.

"they don't do 2x72 in England the big size there is 2x60."

Hmm.. maybe I need to check less specific hardware stores, and find out if a 2x82 would be viable with the belts I can buy here.
 
Smurf masher said:
"You can make your own cheaper than buying it, but since the folks that make them are logging serious man-hours rather than being able to mass produce to meet a high demand, you are paying for a humans time."

I think thats the big take away. These things are pretty niche, (hobby sized) so we end up in a similar situation to disabled people who pay through the nose for equipment that suits their needs as they are are a smaller demographic, and these things are not made in a mass production.

I'm not sure.. I was a bit freaked out by this "https://www.amazon.co.uk/VEVOR-Grinder-Constant-Sander-Grinding/dp/B08MW1WD8N/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2MHISMC35LAH4&keywords=vevor+grinder&qid=1653063670&s=industrial&sprefix=vevor+grinder,industrial,67&sr=1-4"

When I found out it didnt even have an off switch, and often blew breakers when it turned on, and used non standard belts.

"they don't do 2x72 in England the big size there is 2x60."

Hmm.. maybe I need to check less specific hardware stores, and find out if a 2x82 would be viable with the belts I can buy here.
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From what I understand, and that isn't much, the reason 2x72 is as popular here is that 2x72 are readily available (because that is what has been used in the metal fabrication industry). Therefore people gear up to make such things, and support such things. Other countries, may have different "common" usage sizes and therefore 2x72 may be harder for them to find, (or find cheaply) but some other size is readily available. I don't think there is any magic to 72 inches, I think there were 208" ones here at some point. Obviously, that would require some serious space to maintain. Granted the longer the belt, the longer it takes to wear out, the less heating issues it has etc. etc. etc. You just have to see what is common, and has all the different grits you like in your country and build your machine (or find machines made there that support it.) Perhaps decommissioned machines from some factory that used whatever is the common size. I can't rememeber the youtube guy, but he seemed to make a nice no-nonsense grinder. FWIW, the only difference in design is how far apart your idlers are.
 
Thank you for the info!

And I found this vid, by a German (why are they so good at engineering?)
So... to do it properly maybe not quite so easy... But to be fair i was initially going by this: https://www.instructables.com/2X72-Belt-Grinder/

What do you think of this motor for a 50x2000mm custom made belt grinder?

Ribitech M2M28 Electric motor with 2cv-2750 tr / min cable : Amazon.co.uk: Business, Industry & Science

Shop Ribitech M2M28 Electric motor with 2cv-2750 tr / min cable. Free delivery on eligible orders of £20 or more.
www.amazon.co.uk

And if I don't mill them, these wheels: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Machined-G...62-da2d-45dd-80c9-cb42183624c7&pd_rd_wg=q4rGH

I might see if I can do a youtube series where I end up making everything in my shop from that one mill modification. (make the mill then use it to make the grinder, then the rolling mill etc) I doubt I can patent it, and it would cost a lot, likely the best thing I can do is do it, video the process, and maybe get sponsorship if I get enough views of the manufactur of that drill. That would do me super fine (lets face it 10k views would be more than enough to make me smile)

I don't think it is patentable as I am basically using multiple existing proven designs in an unusual combination. But that is also why I'm confident it will work.
 
Absinthe said:
This isn't the one, but seems pretty cheap:
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Nice! Shaby but chic. I could run that off a bench grinder. (I need to buy one anyway for polishing)

I'm still buying kit and prepping as I can't fully dive in until I can move house and get a garage. (3 months) But for now I have a local forge I help out at. I would share more info on my bench press mill conversion but.. I want to make it first you know ;)
 
I considered turning wheels out of wood until they were a tight fit inside sched 40 PVC pipe or ABS pipe. Add some bearings and Bob and Fannie are coming to Christmas dinner. One of the fellows out there with designs has a Dead Cheap version of his design. I will see if I can find it.
Smurf masher said:
Nice! Shaby but chic. I could run that off a bench grinder. (I need to buy one anyway for polishing)

I'm still buying kit and prepping as I can't fully dive in until I can move house and get a garage. (3 months) But for now I have a local forge I help out at. I would share more info on my bench press mill conversion but.. I want to make it first you know ;)
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No big rush, remember, as long as you are working annealed steels and soft metals you can do plenty of stuff with files. And you can be dead balls on accurate with a hand file. Get some made from proper steel, a nice half round and even a 4 in hand. And some rasps for wood work and you can knock out stuff in a shoe box. If you can't afford nice files good sandpaper glued to boards and dowels will do you just right too. You can do this with as much or as little as you like. Or you can spend your life gearing up and kitting up and working on your gear and kit. :) Remember that just because you can build everything doesn't mean you should.

If you want to be primative learn flint knapping. You can carry all that kit on one hand. :)
 
True. I'm just super excited to finally have the chance to let go with my creative inventive side. And I want all the toys and make them, and come up with ideas on how to improve things, create solutions to new problems etc etc. I almost look forward to that more than the artistic creative side.

But yeah... I'll see what I can do with the kit I start with, and move up as I go. But.. I am stupidly excited to start inventing crazy contraptions in the shed!
 
Smurf masher said:
True. I'm just super excited to finally have the chance to let go with my creative inventive side. And I want all the toys and make them, and come up with ideas on how to improve things, create solutions to new problems etc etc. I almost look forward to that more than the artistic creative side.

But yeah... I'll see what I can do with the kit I start with, and move up as I go. But.. I am stupidly excited to start inventing crazy contraptions in the shed!
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Invent away. But don't let it get in the way of making knives. Get quality whenever possible. Learn to use the tools properly, and remember every tool can be jigged or fixtured. Starting with a file. There is a super simple one made by fastening 2 boards together and putting an eye bolt in it, then fastening the file to a bar. There should be links all over for it. Let me know if you can't find one. It's basically the Lanskey Sharpening system just bigger. If you can improve on that design you've got something.
 
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