All Quiet on the NT Front....

Dana Acker

Well-Known Member
Anybody doing anything interesting out there? It's a shame that the forums are so inactive. I know with the advent of social media, the forums are kind of like flint and steel next to one of those auto-lighting butane torches.

But ponder this. When things went digital, I read where America scrapped all its analog everything. Just junked it. Oh there are still some old relics around, but spend a day shopping for any analog gear, and see how much you come home with.

I also read that the Russians carefully dismantled all their analog everything, and cleaned it up, stored away all the spare parts, crated everything up, and stored it away in warehouses where the elements can't ruin it. And they left the wiring and maintain it, although it's hooked to nothing.

Should there be another Carrington Event, or an EMP attack, and their whole digital grid went down, the Russians could break out all that analog equipment, reassemble it, hook it to their generators, and could have communications up and running in a week.

Meanwhile back in the good old US of A, we're going to be trying to find out what kind of wine goes good with roasted iPhone. Oh, I'm sure the military and DARPA probably have a few things up their sleeves, to bail us out, but my point is, sometimes the old ways have their value too.

Not that long ago, the forums were buzzing with activity, and mucho information was being shared, and relationships made. Now, sadly, Twitter, FaceBook, etc., have sort of taken over.

While the people who finance these forums still are willing to do so, we ought to show our gratitude by using them. It ain't Mark Zuckerburg who's footing the bill for these forums to stay up and running. So unless everybody out there knows everything about everything, ask some questions. Hell, start an argument. I've learned a lot over the years from both. Just give it some thought.

By the way, if there is someone out there who knows everything about everything, I've got a question.
 
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I'm guilty of not commenting as much as I could, but have been lurking/reading a good bit. I didn't think the activity had fallen all that much, lots of the WIP threads on the KITH project going. Interesting watching those builds.

On the digital front, in the One Second After 3 book series by John Matherson he explores the results of a major EMP event. There has been much advancement of EMP protection by all the major manufactures. Tests have shown that all modern vehicles don't suddenly die. It will be bad, but not so bad as it would have been 30 yrs ago.

Hmmm, 30 yrs ago seems a long time, but 1990 isn't near so long ago :)
 
If you feel like it, perhaps you could expand on the “Neo-Tribal” style. I know the least about that style. I am familiar with Mr. Crow’s work and he is NT but what are the defining characteristics?
 
For new people to the whole NT thing, and for those who have been around awhile, let me encourage you to go back through the archives and comb through some of that material. There's good stuff out there.
I'm guilty of not commenting as much as I could, but have been lurking/reading a good bit. I didn't think the activity had fallen all that much, lots of the WIP threads on the KITH project going. Interesting watching those builds.

On the digital front, in the One Second After 3 book series by John Matherson he explores the results of a major EMP event. There has been much advancement of EMP protection by all the major manufactures. Tests have shown that all modern vehicles don't suddenly die. It will be bad, but not so bad as it would have been 30 yrs ago.

Hmmm, 30 yrs ago seems a long time, but 1990 isn't near so long ago :)
 
Good question Chris.

But first, please go back and read the post on the NT Art Movement posted near the top of the NT forum page. It was started by Tim LIvely, one of the original founders, and contains comments by Tai Goo (as The One or something like that) who was one of the originals as well.

Then if you want to comment or ask specific questions, I'll be more than glad to chime in, without having to reinvent the wheel. I think the main takeaway is that while we were castigated by umany in the knife world as promoting junk quality, nothing could be further from the truth. Knives made by many in the original NT group command hefty prices today, not what someone would pay for junk.

We were the anti-guild guild. It's not that we were against the guilds at all; we all had friends in the guilds. It's that many in the guilds were anti-NT, and said some pretty disparaging things about us. We didn't have the corporate political structures of the guilds, in that none of us wanted to be the boss. We didn't have the stringent quality rules actually defined, to which one must attain to achieve rank, because there was no ranking system. Our goal was to help others improve in the craft as well as ourselves without having to invest a fortune in expensive shops and machinery. It was a return to a more primal knifemaking mindset.

Our credo, first quoted by Tai, was, "We're not trying to make a better knife; we're trying to make a knife better."

Our second credo was, "If life as we know it suddenly changed [think like after an EMP, or Mad Max apocalypse, "The Walking Dead" etc.] could you still make a knife?"

If I could go back in time I would add, "...could you still make a GOOD knife?"

People thought what we were about was finding chunks of metal and sharpening them on rocks. That was far from the truth. NTM's were about making functional, serviceable, and even aesthetically pleasing knives, but making them differently, and not according to anybody's rules, qualifications, or standards.

As I said in a previous post, recently a friend of mine brought me a NT knife I made for him 20 years ago. The blade had been forged completely to the edge (basically hammer sharpened). After heat treatment, all that was needed was a few licks on a whet stone and it was ready to go. That kind of thing scared the daylights out of many in the ABS (particularly) who thought that that kind of knife had carastrophic failure written all over it, and would bring shame on the entire knifemaking world.

Well, that 20 year old NT knife just needed a little cleaning up and the edge touched up a bit (sharpened, not repaired-no chips or edge rolling). It was still in fine, usable shape after 20 years of work (it wasn't purchased as a wall hanger). Maybe that's not good enough quality for some, but my friend didn't want his money back 20 years later.

The ABS and the Knifemaker's Guild, and all the others, and the entire custom knife world are still doing fine. The NTM's didn't destroy knifemaking as we know it. And people are still talking about what a bunch of rag tag, but totally dedicated artistic smiths were doing under full moons (sometimes naked and chemically altered) back in the 1990's. If the rest of the professional knifemaking world was the Sheriff of Nottingham, then the NTM's were Robin Hood, Little John, and Friar Tuck, plus a few Maid Marian's. And, man did we have fun!
 
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I have been quieter than I should be as well. Trying to get some orders knocked out before The rifle part of deer season hits
 
AW shucks - much of my comments were off the idea of the OP's statements. Just now I realized the thread was started in the NT forum - I barely knew what NT was:( I picked the thread up in the "new posts" section.

Not that I'm opposed to NT type knifemaking, just something that never clicked with me. I'll have to do a bit of reading in the NT forum since I'm there.
 
Don’t worry Ken, a little historical reading won’t hurt. We were never out to change the knife world. We just split from the whole program. And for some strange reason, we’re still an item today. Kinda funny when you think about it. But we made good knives, despite everybody’s worst nightmares. Lions and tigers and NTM’s; oh my!
 
A few years back I was struggling somewhat because I was trying to develop "my style". I was searching for something (other than a touchmark) that said this was made by Chris. I always use De-Mo as an example here. He has a style that says Dennis Moreland even if his name is not on the knife you can tell it is his. I wanted to come up with something unique like that so I thought and thought and everything I tried ended up ugly. Just this year I realized that I do not want to be defined by a style. I am way too distractible to try and stay within a certain style. I have made a few Neo-Tribal knives I just did not know it at the time. I like to make knives,...all knives...any knife is fair game to me. Two weeks ago I was working on canister Damascus for a skinner, now I am working on a cane sword who knows what I will try next week. I have made swords, spears, cane strippers and carving knives. I have even made and sold a few of those trendy Serbian Chef's knives floating around out there. I like it when someone asks me can you make me a XXXX and my answer is yes. It is OK to really like a style such as NT and work within that style. Mr. Crow certainly has carved himself a niche in that style. It is also OK to be open to many styles. The one thing that must remain constant (or improving) is the quality of ones work. I will be honest it took me about three or four framed handle knives to figure things out well enough to let one of them out of my shop but I can make those now to consistent quality.
I think a lot of people get hung up on quality being consistent ONLY with hand sanded finished to the nines knives. There is NOTHING wrong with a perfect hand sanded/finished blade, they are just beautiful. If you do not believe that go look at Randy Lucius' work...Flawless. Thee is also nothing wrong with Storm Crow's forge finished blades. I will dare say both are quality blades that will perform. In my opinion only, the most important and often ignored part of the quality of a knife is the steel. I do not just mean that it is made of a good quality blade/tool steel I mean that the maker has an understanding of the qualities of that steel and how to heat treat it properly. (Nothing in this opinion is intended to discourage or disparage any maker who uses a good HT service instead of doing it themselves, that too, ensures quality).
 
I'm not entirely sure one can look at a blade and anymore say that it is an NT blade. There was never an accepted look, or style, and NT makers employed many different styles, types of blades and techniques. It was the absence of forced styles or finishes or blade types that defined the NTM's. It was not being bound to a particular style that made the NTM's attractive to so many.

Again, I'm not knocking the ABS, as I have many friends who have applied themselves diligently, and have proved themselves knifemakers of excellence in achieving their ranks within that organization. And the ABS have striven to make sure if someone bears their name, that the quality of their work is impeccable. In that the ABS gives the entire industry credibility.

That said, if someone wishes to achieve rank in the ABS, they are required to produce certain kinds/types of knives, and also produce knives which can and will perform to rigid standards of quality. And that is a good thing, if that is the path one wishes to take. My hat's off to all in the ABS.

The NTM's were never against the ABS, but we just chose to go a different way. We never had formal membership, and only once was money involved, and that was for a short while a quite informative newsletter was put out by the NTM's, and the charge only covered the cost of production. That didn't last long. But there was never a membership fee, nor were there strict standards to which one had to adhere as to what they made.

Our commitment to quality was no lower that of the ABS', but there were no membership requirements, and no ranks to achieve. And if one wanted to make highly polished or hammer finished knife, or bird and trout knives, or zombie cleavers it was all cool. We were just out to try to make the best knives possible without all the rules, regulations and corporate organization. And we wanted to spread the craft.

So from what you say above, Chris, makes me think you're more NT in you're knifemaking approach than you might think.
 
I'm not entirely sure one can look at a blade and anymore say that it is an NT blade. There was never an accepted look, or style, and NT makers employed many different styles, types of blades and techniques. It was the absence of forced styles or finishes or blade types that defined the NTM's. It was not being bound to a particular style that made the NTM's attractive to so many.

Again, I'm not knocking the ABS, as I have many friends who have applied themselves diligently, and have proved themselves knifemakers of excellence in achieving their ranks within that organization. And the ABS have striven to make sure if someone bears their name, that the quality of their work is impeccable. In that the ABS gives the entire industry credibility.

That said, if someone wishes to achieve rank in the ABS, they are required to produce certain kinds/types of knives, and also produce knives which can and will perform to rigid standards of quality. And that is a good thing, if that is the path one wishes to take. My hat's off to all in the ABS.

The NTM's were never against the ABS, but we just chose to go a different way. We never had formal membership, and only once was money involved, and that was for a short while a quite informative newsletter was put out by the NTM's, and the charge only covered the cost of production. That didn't last long. But there was never a membership fee, nor were there strict standards to which one had to adhere as to what they made.

Our commitment to quality was no lower that of the ABS', but there were no membership requirements, and no ranks to achieve. And if one wanted to make highly polished or hammer finished knife, or bird and trout knives, or zombie cleavers it was all cool. We were just out to try to make the best knives possible without all the rules, regulations and corporate organization. And we wanted to spread the craft.

So from what you say above, Chris, makes me think you're more NT in you're knifemaking approach than you might think.

Perhaps. I have always kind of done my own thing and as I get older I do not seem to be as worried about what others think about it. I can forge a knife with or without electricity or propane for that matter. I have forged using nothing more than a hole in the ground some wood and a makeshift bellows. I have a fly press that can move some steel on Chris power alone but I also have a hydraulic forge press. I can make stock removal knives if the situation requires it and cut bevels with files (not my preferred way). I just like making stuff...
 
Me too, Chris, and that's part of the essence of NT'ism. When we get too bogged down in making this as opposed to making that, or doing something this way or doing it that way, it just plain old robs one of the joy that caused us to dive into this craft head first initially. Last I checked, no one died and someone else was appointed king in their place.

That's why I became a part of the NTM's back in the day; there were no bosses, no rules, other than do your best with what you have, have a ball doing it, and share it with folks you love and respect. Apply those principles and you're approaching a NT state of mind, no matter what you make or how you make it. And most of all, ENJOY WHAT YOU DO! If it stops being fun (for any reason) it just becomes work.

And what your own heart dictates is right for you, that is always more important than someone else's opinion. It's not that others cannot be helpful in your growth, but you have to go with what you know is right for you, whether anyone else likes it or not.

I read recently that William Scagel, the reputed father of modern knifemaking, thought it better to make a knife that did one thing well, rather than to make a knife that did a lot of things poorly. That simplicity of style or philosophy, for lack of better terms, I'm sure wouldn't measure up to some folk's standards today, but I'm betting you probably can't lay your hands on one of his knives for under a grand.
 
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Your description of "neo-primitive" in another thread really clicked the NT idea for me. I have a great interest in colonial American knife making. Early American knives seem to follow the "make the best knife you can with what you have" model. And many survive to tell that story.
 
Also, I remember reading somewhere that 1080 steel is probably one of the closest steels to those which were used to make knives back in the French and Indian War through the Old West periods. I don't know if anyone has done a metallurgical analysis on surviving knives from the 1700's-1800's, but it sure would be interesting to find out. If anyone knows of such, please enlighten us. If you can provide sources, that would be great.
 
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