A few thoughts on filework

I’m in agreement with about everything said in this thread. There are poor builds and outstanding builds and they run the gambit of Traditional Bowie’s to simple hunters. Some will be better executed than others and the builder should know where he is in that extreme. To coin a phrase - putting lipstick on a pig well you still have a pig.
Now with that said about Bowie’s and hunters there are knife styles out there that are out of main stream traditional knives. Some of them are great builds and some of them poor builds and knife makers can discern the difference.
All good points in this posting. And the bottom line is keep perfecting our skill.
 
J. Doyle said:
I found some pics I like to help illustrate my original point. Keep in mind, I am not referring to colors or materials preferences.

Here is a pretty simple, very well done knife. Good grinds, good flow and proportions and smooth, even finishes:
View attachment 69691

This is not good filework, and it would ruin the above, otherwise very nice knife:
View attachment 69692

This is pretty exquisite filework, love it or hate it:
View attachment 69693


The above filework couldn't save this blade:
View attachment 69694
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Very well illustrated, perfect examples.
 
I myself am not overly fond of embellishments on most knives, Unless they are something like what Bruce Bump make with all the small details bringing the piece together. That is just my own aesthetic and I have seen some fantastic work, its just not my "flavor"
 
opaul said:
Let’s see some examples! Nothing like visuals for a learning experience.

i think you have
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Thank you, OP! That means a great deal to me..... but.... that little orange knife is clean, clean, clean. Lol. I agree that I have done parts of knives that came out as nice as some parts of that knife. But never all at the same time LOL!! It’s true... I always end up with one of the scales glued to my elbow or some such foolishness.
 
Kevin Zito said:
I think we need more discussions just like this. It keeps us thinking and moving forward. I think we all eventually become (still a win in my case) proficient at hammering, grinding, sanding, ... etc. However, I think the real art is in putting the whole package together.... and this is definitely a whole package conversation.
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I agree! It confirms for a guy like me that I need to keep doing what I'm doing, which is work on perfecting clean, simple knives, with flat bevels, good proportions, solid construction.

And, for what my opinion is worth, if I'm getting to pick where I get advice about file work, it would be @J. Doyle. John's flawlessly executed, clean designs coupled with those appropriate additions he described in his first post work to make every bit of his work absolutely stunning.
 
Thanks for fielding the question John. Sorry if I opened a can of worms. I'll post up some pictures of what I've been doing later. This past week I've revisited some work I had settled on. I didn't forsee that I would de-rail your thread. Another lesson learned on forum etiquette.
 
I'll add my opinion on filework, looking at pictures of my early knives that had filework on them all I can say is, well there it is.
the pattern really made no kind of sense, wasn't artistic in any way and really added no value to the knife, like I said, it was just...there.
Fast forward many years and most of my knives come with filework, not all but most. and it's usually a vine pattern, I'm comfortable with the vine pattern and I believe I execute it well. I also believe it is visually appealing and does add to the value of the knife, not as an art form but a touch of class, things like this is what makes people choose your knife over someone elses, just like a knife with a nice sheath is going to get more attention then a knife that doesn't .

Over the years I've seen a lot of knives with filework and like mentioned here some of those knives were ugly....only because of the filework that was on it.
personally, I don't like filework on full tang handles that have been filled with epoxy.
 
This has been an interesting discussion. I think the takeaway here in my mind as far as we makers are concerned would be to make the very best knife that we are capable of making, especially where fit and finish are concerned. If, after achieving a good fit and finish, one wants to venture out and expand his skills by adding embellishments to his knives, he should work on those skills just as diligently as he worked on the basics of fit and finish.

Every maker here is different with unique styles and vision. That’s what makes this community of custom knives so very interesting. We each have a different clientele that we cater to; some like the simple, and others like the extravagant. I will echo what John said in the original post. Filework, or any other embellishment, should add to the beauty and value of the knife. The very definition of embellish is to make something more attractive by the addition of decorative details or features. If an embellishment does not add to the visual appeal and overall effect of the knife design, leave it off. If an embellishment would add to the beauty of a piece, but the maker does not have enough skill to do it well, leave it off. If an embellishment would add to the beauty, design, and effect of the knife, and the maker has the skill level to do it well, then go for it.

Another question that hasn’t been asked would be who makes the determination as to whether or not embellishment is needed? It may simply be the vision of the maker who makes this determination or his relationship with his clients. I have clients who have loved filework and it was an absolute requirement on their pieces. I have had clients who hated filework and wanted no part of it on their knives. I happen to be one who loves filework and have worked hard, and continue to work, to develop the skills to do it right. Due to my artistic tastes, some knives just call out for a little “bling”. Other knives look their very best in a simplistic form and embellishment would just not add to the overall aesthetics of the piece, in fact, it would detract from the simple beauty of the knife. I suppose this is the boundary line between craftsmen and artisans that we all walk.
 
J. Doyle said:
My original point, again, is not about tastes and preferences of details.

The point is about self-awareness and discernment.

I know seasoned collectors that detest filework......but they can objectively look at a detail like filework and decide if its well done or poorly done.

If you like filework, fine. If you don't, fine. If you like plain, fine. If you like highly adorned, fine.

Any maker should be able to assess their own work and decide if they need more work on the fundamentals or if they're ready to move on to embellishments.

And if they don't know or can't decide, I would advise they have the courage and wisdom to ask someone who is qualified to help them decide.
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I am famous for “Missing the point” that’s why I hide behind a computer and shy away from people.
You’re absolutely correct. Being a novice hobby tinkerer, I am waiting to do the fancy stuff until I can execute the basics with ease and comfort, I am sure my bin of failed protects will have to be emptied a couple times before I make something I’d be willing to try and add some tasteful flair to
 
I'm late to the party, but will throw my thoughts out there..... Being a MS, and having judged a at both the JS and MS testing levels numbers of times..... I have a unique perspective on what I'll call "embellishments"....including filework. Speaking directly to filework, I've often found it to be a love/hate thing among collectors/buyers....some love it, some hate it. But as has been mentioned, it's in the discernment.

Back to the JS/MS judging perspective. This has to do more with overall build quality/refinement. Far too often as a judge, particularly at the JS level, I see people present knives with embellishments that they hope with impress the judges. The problem is, all too often they are not well versed in whatever they tried to pull off.....whether that be filework, carving, texturing, fluting, all the way to gold and or silver inlays...... and they do a very poor job of it......which in turn, pulls the overall/entire build quality of the knife into the basement. The problem isn't a prevalent at the MS testing, simply because of the experience level of those folks....but I have still had to fail a few folks for presenting poorly done embellishments.

OK, all that being said, what's the take away here? Many of you have heard me say...... "Super Clean, and Super Simple". NOTHING impresses like a simple, well executed design, and is super cleanly assembled/put together.

Learn to do THAT BEFORE you dive into embellishments......and the embellishments will come much easier!
 
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I’m going to throw my hat in this ring, as a rank amateur, just cracking into the beginner ranks.
While I adamantly agree with what’s been said, about presenting your “best” work, I want to add this from the beginners perspective.
All the fancy tools and jigs and books and YouTube videos, will only get you so far at this endeavor. In the end it comes down to the ability of the craftsman to identify bad work from good, and good from great. Great work and bad work are easy to spot. It’s the in between that take years and years to develop the eye for. Some get it faster than others, but nonetheless it takes a while.
For me, the most important tool I have is a good, HONEST, review of my skill set, and good honest solutions to my foe-paws, and/or shortcomings. It’s a fine line to walk and just because a guy has “the eye”, some lack the decorum to offer a constructive criticism with the accompanying “tips” to improve. An honest assessment of skill level would be a huge bolster to this art form in general.
I believe good honest coaching and education is the key here. Let the uneducated, wallow in there own ineptitude, and the true craftsmen will rise above the fray.
I would love to see a dedicated forum where a beginner could post an approved series of photos and receive the constructive criticism of a preselected group of folks. This is a service I would pay for, because it is so valuable to the process.
Having said all that, this forum is great for most issues, but most times the educated are too polite to poo-poo on a beginners parade, for fear of running them off, and justifiably so. But, like I have mentioned before, those with the fortitude will continue on.
Thank you
 
Kev said:
I would love to see a dedicated forum where a beginner could post an approved series of photos and receive the constructive criticism of a preselected group of folks. This is a service I would pay for, becau
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Maybe you are on to something here. Though I would not agree with the “pre-selected folks part” because I do not think that is a good road to go down. That being said, a sub forum for honest and no holds barred critique could be a good thing. There should be a clear warning that the critique will be respectful in nature but not afraid to “hurt feelings”. That way those that choose to post there know what they are asking for when they post. That may be a good idea. It would require an involved moderator to make sure things did not get insulting too because that would be a risk as well.
 
Chris Railey said:
Maybe you are on to something here. Though I would not agree with the “pre-selected folks part” because I do not think that is a good road to go down. That being said, a sub forum for honest and no holds barred critique could be a good thing. There should be a clear warning that the critique will be respectful in nature but not afraid to “hurt feelings”. That way those that choose to post there know what they are asking for when they post. That may be a good idea. It would require an involved moderator to make sure things did not get insulting too because that would be a risk as well.
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There's a sub forum on here for knife photography that follows that format. I don't think it's very active anymore. I think that the critique's that I've gotten when I've posted knives I've made on here in different threads have been very positive and helpful in nature.
 
If it happens name it...…...This is my knife - give me the good, bad and ugly. It would have to centered around craftsmanship and not personal preference though and that would be a fine line to define. But it could be set up to be judged on predetermined criteria, such as (this is an example not a do all for sure).
1. Blade length to handle ratio.
2. Fit and finish - Areas that seem to lack a high degree of attention
3. Pin placement - centered, equal spacing, size, etc
4. Ricasso - ??
5. Plunge line definition
6. Blade grinding

In order for this to happen it's going to require a lot of photographs and detailed photographs. Not sure how that would go over.
 
Follow up to above posting...…..I don't know whose work this is but it lacks - a lot.
and based on the criteria I suggested above this is the feedback
1. The knife does not look balanced, it seems the handle was just stuck on the blade.
2. The fit and finish is poor - the front of the scales has a hard edge as well as the handle being cigar shaped and resembling a round dowel.
3. The pin placement is obviously lacking in uniformity and placement. The center pin is not centered and the front pin is low on the center line. The large 'fancy' pin overpowers the entire knife.
4. Ricasso - not clearly defined and uneven.
5. Plunge line definition...…..hard to see as it lacks definition and sharpness - washed out would be a better definition.
6. Blade grinding - very washed out looking. The attempt to get a high grind and a visible flat failed miserably. There are grind marks that hours of hand sanding would not remove.
7. Overall...…..good attempt but poor execution in all aspects of craftsmanship. Nice try, can't wait to see the next one.

I'm sure others will chime in.

 
I think a subforum with a 'no holds barred' is kind of a good idea but I don't think it would be too well received by some folks.
for one thing we all heard the old 'we're all sensitive people' motto and some people would definitely be taken back by some of the comments that might come from others. moderation aside, some folks are going to take criticisms badly if there put out like, hey this is the place to do it.

I see people asking for and getting comments on their work already on this forum, some with what I think may be over positive or over negative, but it all mashes.
for instance, you may have someone all tooled up and having a difficult time with something, they post some pictures and get what he considers getting slammed in that one subforum, that may make someone throw in the towel, and that wouldn't be right.
 
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