304 bolsters?
- Thread starter Kev
- Start date
I worked exclusively with 304 for about 20 years building food processing equipment, but it never needed a high polish when it left my shop.
For pins I was planning on just using 304 round stock. My plan was to experiment with welding the pins in. I don’t know if it will work, but I’ve had good luck blending welds in the past. I guess we’ll see.
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
304 is a pain to work with compared to 416, and 416 is a pain to work with compared to Nickel Silver.
I second what Boss said, but will go one step further..... I doubt you will be able to find 304 pin stock to match.
Finishing either 304 or 416 takes a lot of work compared to Nickel Silver...... and nobody is gona give you more money for a knife it took you twice as long to finish.
I've seen a lot of people fail the ABS JS test because they insisted on using Stainless for fittings.... and the individuals either did not, or could not finish the materials to a level that allowed for passing the test. Most that I have witnessed/judged personally, look like they had leftover heavy grit scratches, that they'd tried to buff out....and only managed a look of buffed over scratches.
When coaching individuals for their JS test, I always recommend Nickel Silver for fittings. It is infinitely easier to finish, and when it comes to the ABS test, you don't get any "extra credit" for using a "difficult" material.... but you do have a much higher chance of failure. I'm always amazed when an individual tells me.... "I want to impress the judges!" My response is always the same.... "You're dealing with all ABS Mastersmiths. You're not going to do anything that they don't do, or haven't tried. What impresses judges at the JS level testing is simple and clean designs, that are executed to the Nth degree."
Moral of the story? Use materials that will lend themselves to achieving the highest levels of fit and finish, with the least hassles on your part, especially if you're building test knives for the JS or MS test. Stainless fittings, and especially the 300 series, is simply making things far more difficult on yourself than necessary. Something else I tell students...... "The difference between a Knifemaker, and a Good Knifemaker....is that a Good Knifemaker knows how to minimize, or hide their mistakes.
I second what Boss said, but will go one step further..... I doubt you will be able to find 304 pin stock to match.
Finishing either 304 or 416 takes a lot of work compared to Nickel Silver...... and nobody is gona give you more money for a knife it took you twice as long to finish.
I've seen a lot of people fail the ABS JS test because they insisted on using Stainless for fittings.... and the individuals either did not, or could not finish the materials to a level that allowed for passing the test. Most that I have witnessed/judged personally, look like they had leftover heavy grit scratches, that they'd tried to buff out....and only managed a look of buffed over scratches.
When coaching individuals for their JS test, I always recommend Nickel Silver for fittings. It is infinitely easier to finish, and when it comes to the ABS test, you don't get any "extra credit" for using a "difficult" material.... but you do have a much higher chance of failure. I'm always amazed when an individual tells me.... "I want to impress the judges!"
My response is always the same.... "You're dealing with all ABS Mastersmiths. You're not going to do anything that they don't do, or haven't tried. What impresses judges at the JS level testing is simple and clean designs, that are executed to the Nth degree."Moral of the story? Use materials that will lend themselves to achieving the highest levels of fit and finish, with the least hassles on your part, especially if you're building test knives for the JS or MS test. Stainless fittings, and especially the 300 series, is simply making things far more difficult on yourself than necessary. Something else I tell students...... "The difference between a Knifemaker, and a Good Knifemaker....is that a Good Knifemaker knows how to minimize, or hide their mistakes.
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Sean Jones
Well-Known Member
304 is a pain to work with compared to 416, and 416 is a pain to work with compared to Nickel Silver.
I second what Boss said, but will go one step further..... I doubt you will be able to find 304 pin stock to match.
Finishing either 304 or 416 takes a lot of work compared to Nickel Silver...... and nobody is gona give you more money for a knife it took you twice as long to finish.
Ed, correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks to me like Nickel Silver is considerably more expensive than 416, at least at the sources I've looked at so far.
So it would seem to be a bit of a trade off. Does nickel silver finish up better?
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
Yes, Nickel Silver is more expensive than most SS for fittings, particularly 304, but 304 is also the absolute worst to fit and finish of the SS materials.
The Nickel Silver that I purchase is from Jantz, as they are the only ones who offer the alloy (9% nickel) that I prefer. The less expensive Nickel Silver is usually 6 or less percent nickel, and is what I would call "gummy" when working. It's difficult to explain just how much easier it is to finish Nickel Silver versus SS..... but I'll use the old.... "night and day" difference.
To give you an idea, it easily takes me twice as long to finish a Stainless guard versus a Nickel Silver one. With SS I have to go through ALL the grits when hand finishing....up to 1200+ before either buffing or satin finishing....otherwise scratches WILL show through.
With Nickel silver, I come off the grinder at 400-600, go over it lightly with 600 by hand, then buff, and it's literally a mirror finish. From there I can either leave it mirrored, but more often than not, I'll grab a fine grade finishing block (from Klingspor) and satin finish the guard..... all done.
I've heard the excuse that Nickel Silver is more expensive from individuals who failed their JS test because they chose 304 or 416, and didn't do a passable job of finishing the SS..... a few were ones I'd warned ahead of time, and they didn't listen..... to their credit, a few of them came back to retest, used Nickel Silver instead of SS for fittings......and passed easily. Your'e 100% correct about the "trade off".....but in this case the extra money paid for the material (Nickel Silver) more than makes up for it in how easily it is to fit and finish the material.
If I do use a stainless for guards/fittings, it's 416.
The Nickel Silver that I purchase is from Jantz, as they are the only ones who offer the alloy (9% nickel) that I prefer. The less expensive Nickel Silver is usually 6 or less percent nickel, and is what I would call "gummy" when working. It's difficult to explain just how much easier it is to finish Nickel Silver versus SS..... but I'll use the old.... "night and day" difference.
To give you an idea, it easily takes me twice as long to finish a Stainless guard versus a Nickel Silver one. With SS I have to go through ALL the grits when hand finishing....up to 1200+ before either buffing or satin finishing....otherwise scratches WILL show through.
With Nickel silver, I come off the grinder at 400-600, go over it lightly with 600 by hand, then buff, and it's literally a mirror finish. From there I can either leave it mirrored, but more often than not, I'll grab a fine grade finishing block (from Klingspor) and satin finish the guard..... all done.
I've heard the excuse that Nickel Silver is more expensive from individuals who failed their JS test because they chose 304 or 416, and didn't do a passable job of finishing the SS..... a few were ones I'd warned ahead of time, and they didn't listen..... to their credit, a few of them came back to retest, used Nickel Silver instead of SS for fittings......and passed easily. Your'e 100% correct about the "trade off".....but in this case the extra money paid for the material (Nickel Silver) more than makes up for it in how easily it is to fit and finish the material.
If I do use a stainless for guards/fittings, it's 416.
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Dennis Morland
KNIFE MAKER
I tried 304 once. Just once. It is hard!!
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
I have used a bunch of 316 and it’s not awful but it’s no fun, either. But way better than 304.
Sean Jones
Well-Known Member
Yes, Nickel Silver is more expensive than most SS for fittings, particularly 304, but 304 is also the absolute worst to fit and finish of the SS materials.
The Nickel Silver that I purchase is from Jantz, as they are the only ones who offer the alloy (9% silver) that I prefer. The less expensive Nickel Silver is usually 6 or less percent silver, and is what I would call "gummy" when working. It's difficult to explain just how much easier it is to finish Nickel Silver versus SS..... but I'll use the old.... "night and day" difference.
To give you an idea, it easily takes me twice as long to finish a Stainless guard versus a Nickel Silver one. With SS I have to go through ALL the grits when hand finishing....up to 1200+ before either buffing or satin finishing....otherwise scratches WILL show through.
With Nickel silver, I come off the grinder at 400-600, go over it lightly with 600 by hand, then buff, and it's literally a mirror finish. From there I can either leave it mirrored, but more often than not, I'll grab a fine grade finishing block (from Klingspor) and satin finish the guard..... all done.
I've heard the excuse that Nickel Silver is more expensive from individuals who failed their JS test because they chose 304 or 416, and didn't do a passable job of finishing the SS..... a few were ones I'd warned ahead of time, and they didn't listen..... to their credit, a few of them came back to retest, used Nickel Silver instead of SS for fittings......and passed easily. Your'e 100% correct about the "trade off".....but in this case the extra money paid for the material (Nickel Silver) more than makes up for it in how easily it is to fit and finish the material.
If I do use a stainless for guards/fittings, it's 416.
OK. Makes sense. I'll have to give the Nickel Silver a try in the near future.
Thanks for the reply Ed.
Larry Cooper
Member
I always loved NS from Jantz but they was always out of the 1/4" stock I prefer. I just checked their site and they are only showing 1/8" or 3/8" in stock. So I've been using 416 SS. I thought it was just me but yeah it's a lot harder to finish! Hard as in getting a great buffing finish. Easy to work with otherwise.
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Self Made Knives
Well-Known Member
You can do 304, I have. It is a pain to drill. I got some pin stock from Enco I think, but they're gone now. This knife below has 304 bolsters.
After all that’s been discussed, I think I’ll shorten the learning curve and just start with nickel silver.
Having said that, in the past I’ve purchased 304SS round stock from my local metal supplier. Out of curiosity I asked for a cert to verify, if it was indeed 304 and sure enough it was. They sell every common diameter from 1/8” up to 3”.
What would be the difference between this and “pin stock”? Just for knowings sake.
Thank you.
Having said that, in the past I’ve purchased 304SS round stock from my local metal supplier. Out of curiosity I asked for a cert to verify, if it was indeed 304 and sure enough it was. They sell every common diameter from 1/8” up to 3”.
What would be the difference between this and “pin stock”? Just for knowings sake.
Thank you.
Smallshop
KNIFE MAKER
Just want to say nice makers mark! The rest looks great too Anthony..
Good to know. Again, just to satisfy my morbid curiosity, why is 304 “pin stock” hard and/or impossible to find?
Smallshop
KNIFE MAKER
Randy Lucius
Well-Known Member
Hi Ed! Looking at Jantz's sight for nickel silver bar stock. All their nickel silver is listed as 752 nickel silver. I assume that's what you use unless I'm looking in the wrong place. What width and thickness do you normally order?
Ed, don't you mean 9% Nickel rather than 9% silver since Nickel Silver (German Silver) doesn't contain any silver, but is an alloy of copper and nickel with a bit of zinc? I see Jantz is now using 752 alloy of Nickel Silver which is actually more nickel at around 18% or so. note this data sheet is for C752 alloy which I'm assuming is the 752 alloy Jantz is using.
https://www.ajoster.com/sites/default/files/downloads/C-75200_B122_NICKEL-SILVER_AJ-OSTER.pdf
Ed: Thanks for the info on using Nickel Silver, I've been using brass on most of my guards and bolsters because it works so much easier than SS, but I do think I'll order a bar of the Nickel Silver from Jantz.
Ed, please allow me to say THANK YOU! again for all the knowledge you so freely share with us.
Ken H>