303 vs 410 vs 416 SS??

K

KenH

Well-Known Member
Hello all, Looking at stainless steels for bolsters, guards, folder liners, etc - 303 SS is listed as a machinable and 416 is listed as machinable, but 410 isn't listed as to machinability. 303 is less expensive, - just how much difference is there in the three materials when used in knife making for the above?

Any comments, guidance, etc are greatly appreciated.

Ken H>
 
Ken,
This is just my experience with those materials which I do use regularly.
The 303 and 416 are pretty much the same work wise. They work well with the standard tools. I stopped mirror polishing the two and now only do a satin or polished satin finish on them because it's a waste of time to bring them to a high polish when they scratch so easily. I finally got disgusted when a starched table cloth could ruin a perfect finish on my bolsters. The 303 blends well with 316 TIG rod for pins and 416 pin stock is readily available for the 416 bar. The 410 is my high mirror polish material but it's a bit tougher to get there. Be ready to use fresh belts in the high grits, the stuff is tough. It almost feels like the belt is rolling on ball bearings or glass. I'm not too impressed with filing it either, with a double cut file it feels like it's slipping. I try to get my hardware as close to finish shape as possible in the lower grits or single cut file to save some time getting to polish. If you need to reshape, the high grit belts have little effect. The 416 pin stock blends nicely with it. It's definitely more scratch resistant than the other two. I like it but I hate it too, luckily I don't mirror everything I make. All that said, it's worth the extra effort and probably isn't as bad as it sounds.

Hope this helps.
Rudy
 
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My experience is a little different.....personally I despise 300 series stainless for fittings. Probably the best example I can give you is a few years ago, I had an indivudal who was testing for the JS rating. The knives were sent to me for inspection, and all the the fittings had what I call "buffed over" heavy grit scratches....they were not overly appearant, but shifting the knives in the light clearly showed them. After talking with the individual on the phone, I found out he had used 303 and 304 on all those knives.
My personal experiences with 303/304 have been similar. I work my behind off, and scratches still show up.....I'm not saying it can't be done, but I think using 300 series stainless for fittings is putting yourself through a lot of unnecessary grief and work. Of the stainless materials I've used over the years, 416 is far and away the one I prefer. Compared to softer materials such as Nickel Silver, it requires significantly more effort on the maker's part to achieve a good finish, but not even close to what the 300 series requires.
I absolutely agree with Rudy in that you must use sucessive grit belts, that an new and sharp with any of the stainless, but I very often can jump a grit of two with 416, where there is no way I can with 300.
 
Successive belts is probably the key to 300 series and I'm pretty religious about that, sometimes up to 4000 grit. I have to admit the drilling of it is sometimes the only problem I've encountered. I'm sure individual technique has a lot to do with it...or perseverance in my case.

Rudy
 
Thank you to both for your comments - it does sound like for a folder/liner material 416 might be better, as I think both of ya'll are agreeing 416 will machine easier than 303.

Thanks again for the help 'n guidance,

Ken H>
 
my suggestion would be use 304/316. easy to obtain, fairly easy to machine, most corrosion resistant of all common stainless, will take a high polish and can be mirror finished. you can also find 304/316 round stock or dowel pins that make excellent pins. if you are making a knife to be graded, use granite for bolsters and let the schmoes try to find scratches.
 
If you can get a drop of each, try a drill test with a new 3/32 bit. You cover a wide range of applications in your first post. Pick one stainless which best fits your application.
My observation over the years has been that if you get a curl, the stainless is generally going to be 'grabby' to tooling. A medium chip like I get from 416 indicates pretty good workability . The 410 spits out tiny sand grains which I know from experience really sucks for filing out a guard. For liners, I'd be more concerned about tapability. For guards on fixed blades I want to be sure a file will do it's thing in the hole. This topic reminds me of when I first started using stainless back in the late 80s, I'd get hunks of stainless from a guy who knew a guy who knew another guy. No-one could tell me anything about it, all I got was "hey....it's stainless" and a shrug. Most of it grabbed and broke my bits and some of it skated a bit like a ballarina on ice. A lot of frustration and exprimentation finally convinced me to get known materials, a milling machine and some tapmatics. Who knew that drilling one little hole would lead to .

Rudy
 
Rudy, you comment "convinced me to get known materials" reminds me of myself and my start (this time) in knife making. A yr or so ago I started out with the idea of using "old steel" found in coil springs or leaf springs around the farm in scrap pile. I was going to forge these materials and "make knifes". Well, I did, and it did work - but took LOTS of work hammering steel into somewhat of a "knife shape", then finishing on a grinder. Some of the blades actually turned out pretty good with Rc around 56 to 57 or so and are good cutting knives. BUT - after hammering a while and finding tiny cracks in a couple of blades, I got concerned about possible "tiny cracks" that were inside the blade and would cause failure later on. I realized the cost of good Aldo 1084 just wasn't much, and allowed me to work with steel I knew what was, and how it should be heat treated. I now work mostly with Sandvik series steels. I LIKE those!

I've worked with 304 and 316 SS for many years in construction and around boats. Never really considered the ease of machining, just grabbed a drill bit, chucked in press and "hogged" thru the SS. Now I'm more concerned with milling, lathe, file, sanding, etc.

Right now, I'm learning about folder knives, and I guess I should say the SS I'm looking for is what's best for the liner, bolster use. The liner/bolster will be machined from a single bar rather than bolster soldered to liner. I did one liner with bolster silver soldered on, and it seems good (can't see the line between with rough grind). A GREAT folder maker suggested using a single bar, and it's just so easy to mill from a single bar I think that might be the way to go.

Right now, I'm using pins/rivets with the liners, just can't imagine tapping a 2-56 thread!! Perhaps later my skill will advance to the level I'll attempt tapping those tiny screws.

Thanks again to all, Scott, Rudy, Ed, Frank for your comments.

Ken H>
 
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