20 Pound propane tank

wmhammond

Well-Known Member
Hey guys, thinking about building a heat treat and annealing forge. I plan to use a 20 pound propane tank and want to build it out of fire brick. Two questions: Will the 20 Pound tank provide enough pressure to heat the chamber to 2300* if I build the chamber as big as 300 Cu. In? If so, can I heat that space with a regular torch or will I need to build a higher volume burner? If not, what is the largest volume I should build my chamber to still be able to use a 20 pound tank/ Thanks,

Wallace
 
300 cu in in a firebrick forge to 2300 deg from a 20 lb cylinder seems to be asking quite a lot of the design. How much wriggle room is there on these numbers?

Where are you? This is likely to make a difference in terms of the available gas take-off rate and burner rating available without freezing the cylinder.

Why do you want 2300 deg? For forging, it is understandable, but for Annealing and HT, I struggle to see the point.

2300 deg is sufficient to take on pretty much all the stainless blade steels, but the ramp/soak temperature control is not. The very slow cooling rates needed for a full anneal on complex steels (20 deg/hr from 1560 down to 1200 deg is Uddenholm's recommendation for their D2; http://www.bucorp.com/files/aisi_d2.pdf ) are much better served by a purpose-designed electric HT oven/kiln/furnace.

I would expect 2000 deg to be adequate for HT and annealing.

I don't think there is necessarily a problem with reaching 2300, but it will need more heat input (and therefore possibly more gas) than 2000. With the limited gas take-off implied by the 20 lb cylinder, it may not be practicable to maintain a high take-off over anneal and HT timescales. If you've just chosen 2300 because you might want to use it for forging once in a while, that should be fine.

Firebrick is a rather broad term. There are hard fire bricks and Insulating Fire Bricks. Hard bricks are lousy insulators.

With a low heat input, you need good insulation. IFBs come in many grades. Morgan Thermal Ceramics K23 or JM 23 seem to be the best insulators by some margin, and would be my choice if it has to be bricks. Personally, I prefer Ceramic Fiber blanket, not least because it's easier to transport and much more likely to arrive intact than IFBs.

I think the most important thing is going to be your burner. I am sure it can be done with a torch, but I am even surer you will be better served buying or building a burner that is specifically designed for the purpose.

Be very careful when selecting this. Controllability is the key to getting good H.T. results.

Bear in mind that you are definitely not looking for high temperatures for HT, particularly HT of Carbon steels. Do not be swayed by claims of welding temperature at 3 PSI.

I use a 1/2" burner built around a commercial Venturi mixer and can get the full range of temperatures from Austenitizing to welding. It is a British-made gas mixer and uses BSP threads. It has a screwed choke adjustment and can be adjusted to maintain temperature within a few degrees anywhere within this range.

http://amalcarb.co.uk/downloadfiles/amal/amal_gas_injectors.pdf

I don't know whether something similar is readily available in the USA.

I have only been messing with forges and burners for about the last five years, but have been dealing with gas burners for twenty-five years in my day job. Up until the last couple of weeks, I had been under the impression that the relationship between Air:Fuel ratio and flame temperature was generally understood by smiths. I have been looking for a good written explanation on the internet (or at the least a better explanation than I can give) and cannot find anything. The best thing I can find is Corinkayaker's Youtube Vid at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4AuZTyEo2o

Hopefully, it explains the relationship between the air supply, temperature and forge atmosphere well enough to convince you of the benefits of a burner with a choke (air adjustment).
 
Thank you both for your suggestions. After reading them and acting on the first one I have changed my mind some on how to proceed. As suggested, I contacted Larry Zoeller and described my plans to him. he said, categorically, that I would need 3 professionally designed burners because of the length of my plan. I wanted to be able to heat treat and anneal knives up to 15" long so my design was for the forge to be 4 1/2" X 4 1/2" X 18". Larry also said that with that length I would also need to increase the diameter of the forge to have adequate air flow. It seems that with all things knife making "The longer you chew it the bigger it gets". In my ignorance, my design got overly aggressive both for what I was actually trying to accomplish and for my budget. I think I'm going to just look for a small commercially available forge but how do you harden or anneal a 15" knife with a 12' forge? I am thinking about the 2 burner Wilders Gas Forge but its only 12" long at about $225 + shipping or the Majestic Gas forge with 3 burners but its $475 + Shipping. What do you guys think about these?

Wallace
 
With all due respect to Larry Zoeller, I am fairly certain he is wrong on this one.

Here is a forge I built specifically for HT. I was trying to scale down a Don Fogg-style horizontal 55-gallon drum HT forge to a size more suited to the space available to the average UK knifemaker.

It is well worth trying to find the Don Fogg design on the web. It is simple, cheap and it works, it sounds like it would fit your needs pretty well and it has the not inconsiderable advantage of Dons reputation behind it. I have seen 2 of them in use and been very impressed. Good luck though, I have just spent a fruitless few minutes trying to Google it.



790 degC is 1454 degF. I have had it down to 765 degC (1409 degF), but struggled to go much lower than that and still hold temperature indefinitely.



The single burner is made from a 1/2" Amal atmospheric injector (it screws onto a 1/2" pipe thread) with a size 30 Amal jet (measuring .020") and some odd bits of stainless pipe I had in the scrap pile. The knurled part in the photo is the adjuster for the air; effectively a finely-adjustable choke.



The forge is an around 18" length of 10" pipe lined with 1" of kaowool blanket and the ends are 1" kaowool board. I coated the inside with a thin mix of rigidizer and porcelain clay powder. Length inside is about 15", maybe 18", but it could easily be made longer. I built it from stuff I had to hand. I cannot honestly remember if the 18" length was internal or external, but even at 8" diameter x only 15" long, the chamber is 750 cu in.



1183 degC is 2161 degF. Enough for forging. It also suggests there is some scope for making a longer one for HT only.



When the pictures were taken, it was running on a 15 kG (33 pound) Propane cylinder, which was nearly empty when I started. The condensation line (no ice) was about 2 1/2" up from the bottom of the cylinder after 5 or 6 hours at an ambient temperature that I am fairly sure will have been between 8 and 15 degC (47 and 59 degF).

My intention was to build a useful HT setup from parts available in the UK and make it easy enough to build and use that someone without any previous experience could get good results. I gave it to a knifemaker at a hammerin last year and will hopefully see him at another hammerin in a couple of weeks time to get some feedback on how/if it performs.
 
It is well worth trying to find the Don Fogg design on the web. It is simple, cheap and it works, it sounds like it would fit your needs pretty well and it has the not inconsiderable advantage of Dons reputation behind it. I have seen 2 of them in use and been very impressed. Good luck though, I have just spent a fruitless few minutes trying to Google it.
This should take you to it...
At Batson's symposium this year they had a very impressive heat-treating forge, made from a garbage can of all things... lined with kaowool. Basically the same design with a single burner and a pyrometer, it held temperature perfectly once fine tuned.
 
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That link takes me to Don Foggs vertical forge design. The one I was looking for is his HT forge design: basically a horizontal 55-gallon drum lined with one layer of 1" inswool, with a small burner low down at one end and a rectangular exhaust port high up on the other end. On the two I've seen up close, the workpiece goes in through the rectangular exhaust port and hangs in one or more loops of wire which are extensions of the wire ties that hold in the inswool lining.

One guys take on the design can be seen at

http://www.ironflower.com/tips/Bladesmithing/GaijinTo/Gas Forge-Austenizer.htm

It sounds like the garbage can at Batson's symposium was/is very similar. I presume it is the one shown at

http://arcadiaknives.blogspot.co.uk/

I did find a few references on other forums by googling for images, but it only really works if you already know what one looks like...
 
I don't know anything about building forges. But...I do know that my propayne always runs out at night---when none is available. Get a spare tank :).
 
That link takes me to Don Foggs vertical forge design. The one I was looking for is his HT forge design: basically a horizontal 55-gallon drum lined with one layer of 1" inswool, with a small burner low down at one end and a rectangular exhaust port high up on the other end. On the two I've seen up close, the workpiece goes in through the rectangular exhaust port and hangs in one or more loops of wire which are extensions of the wire ties that hold in the inswool lining.

One guys take on the design can be seen at

http://www.ironflower.com/tips/Bladesmithing/GaijinTo/Gas Forge-Austenizer.htm

It sounds like the garbage can at Batson's symposium was/is very similar. I presume it is the one shown at

http://arcadiaknives.blogspot.co.uk/

I did find a few references on other forums by googling for images, but it only really works if you already know what one looks like...

Sorry I gave you the wrong link, perhaps you can find it from there if it used to be on his website. Yes, that's the one I was talking about at Batson's, worked like a charm... I'm planning to build one just a bit longer, for some crazy reason I want to make swords...

And yes, if you're going to use a 20lb propane tank, have a spare...:)
 
1618452_231407423710878_959465684_n[1].jpgThanks, guys, for all the comments. I ended up purchasing this brand new Wilder's Gas forge with 2 burners on eBay for about $250. Doubt I could have built anything close to it for that amount of money. Talked to a few owners before purchase and the reviews were generally very good so I jumped. I'll update you about my experience after I get it and give it a try. Thanks again,

Wallace
 
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