1095 heat treat?

S

sharperedge

Member
Hi I'm new to the forum. I've been wanting to try a experiment but don't materials yet and I was wondering if any one has tried or thought using something like pure dish soap to quench in. Any thoughts on how fast quench it would be or if it would be a crash and burn?
 
I can't say it absolutely would not work..... but it would be less then ideal. The ability to transfer heat away from its source is key to a quenchant. With the amount of water contained in dish soap, and its viscosity, I would expect a lot of boiling and possibly a good amount of splatter. Likely not the best for heat transfer, and even less so for personal safety. :)
 
Well, I guess I'd ask why or how did that idea even come to you? I'm a newb too, but carbon steels have been being developed and quenched for hundreds of years. I'm not saying there isn't a chance to discover something else that works, but heat treating is tricky enough without mixing unknowns into it. Most of us use canola oil for 1095 or the much more expensive Parks 50. A couple gallons of canola is proven to work and it's pretty darn cheap, not much reason to experiment.
 
Honestly I probably is a dumb idea. I was just trying to find something faster than canola and easier to obtain than parks 50. I'm sure it's best to stick with what's known but you'll never find anything new if you never try.
 
Well, I did a little test with transmission fluid once, and I think it was a little faster than canola. That's not a popular oil though, people are afraid of breathing the smoke or fumes from it. Even with canola, I quench near a garage door with plenty of ventilation. That was before I had a hardness tester too, so might be interesting to go back and do it again someday.

Originally I was quenching 1095 at 1475 deg into 120 deg canola. I was sort of getting a hamon looking area at the spine that I didn't really want. Lately, on 1095, I've been bumping the temp up a little in the oven to 1500 deg and bumping the temp of the canola down to about 100 deg. Seems to harden a little deeper now with less of the hamon/perlite/whatever zone on the spine.
 
I haven't tried canola yet there is a lot of controversy on weather it works or not. I have use transmission fluid and it did not come out very hard. What do you temper at when using canola oil.
 
sharperedge said:
I haven't tried canola yet there is a lot of controversy on weather it works or not. I have use transmission fluid and it did not come out very hard. What do you temper at when using canola oil.
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There really isn't any "controversy" with canola oil as a quenchant for shallow hardening steels. Many of us can attest to the fact....it works. But your stock can't be much over 1/8", or it won't harden well. 1/8" and below, canola warmed up to 130°F works very well. The fast P50 oil does work much better, tho, especially thicker stock.

To give you an idea, canola may only get you 65 out of the quench, but P50 might give you 66 or 67. P50 is considered a 7 second oil, canola warmed to 130°F is about a 9 second oil. So they are somewhat close in nickel ball speed.

Personally, I think the warm canola is a darn fine quench medium. On deeper hardening steel it works very well. On shallow hardening steel, it works very well on thinner stock. I'm not saying that canola does as good of a job as commercial quenchant tho. Commercial stuff is engineered for a fast cooling initially to beat the pearlite nose, but then it's speed slows down as the steel goes under 900°F and on down to Ms-Mf or M90 if you will.
 
Thanks for the info those are the first facts I have seen on canola, maybe the one against it are using thicker blades. What is your temper cycle you use.
 
Self Made Knives said:
Well, I guess I'd ask why or how did that idea even come to you? I'm a newb too, but carbon steels have been being developed and quenched for hundreds of years. I'm not saying there isn't a chance to discover something else that works, but heat treating is tricky enough without mixing unknowns into it. Most of us use canola oil for 1095 or the much more expensive Parks 50. A couple gallons of canola is proven to work and it's pretty darn cheap, not much reason to experiment.
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The original cash outlay of 5 gallons of P-50 is about 2x more than 5 gallons of Canola but when you consider that P-50 will last 5-6 years vs. 1-2 for Canola, P-50 is actually CHEAPER than Canola. Either way, the cost per blade is so low, that any serious maker should use the best oil available to get the most from the steel.
If you're absolutely determined to use Canola, do yourself and your customers a favor and use a steel that doesn't require an extremely fast quench. 1095 or W2 quenched in Canola will never perform any better than 1084 quenched in Canola and MAY not perform as well. Just my .02, YMMV.
 
And Parks isn't ridiculous to get... Maxim Oil out of Fort Worth sells it.

I'm with Darrin... Use the right quench for 1095, or find a steel that works better with the oil you have.
 
Darrin Sanders said:
The original cash outlay of 5 gallons of P-50 is about 2x more than 5 gallons of Canola but when you consider that P-50 will last 5-6 years vs. 1-2 for Canola, P-50 is actually CHEAPER than Canola.
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Darrin, I agree with everything you said. Well, sort of.... You can get 5 gallons of generic canola for about $25. Maxxim Oil quoted me about $120 for a 5 gallon pail of P50 delivered, so it's more like 5x the price. I think the thing with canola is that you can pick it up on the way home at Wally world and you don't really need 5 gallons, so a lot of guys are looking at spending $5-$10 vs. $120 for oil. I am in no way saying its better or even close to being as good, but for newbs it is cheaper and more convenient to try. I know its not as good because I don't get the 66 or 67 rc like Samuriastuart mentioned above either, I usually only get 62 or 63 at most with canola.


And, Sharperedge, again don't count on me doing it right, but I've been tempering 1095 at 400 deg.
 
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Guar dog how many times do you temper? I was thinking about 375 just to retain extra hardness. Any advice is helpfull in only on my second knife so I have a lot to learn. If I decide to start selling I definitely will take the time to get parks 50 but for now to keep it simple and easy I'm gonna use canola oil this time.
 
I think it's fairly common to do two temper cycles, each 2 hours long. If I know I'm going to be in the shop for 4 hours, I'll do two. But sometimes, like on a week night and I don't have much shop time, I'll just do one. One of the pros will have to weigh in a tell us if 2 cycles makes a big difference or not.

Hey, your off to a good start, those look great.
 
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A 375 F. temper on properly hardened 1095 is going to live it a bit on the brittle side most likely.
 
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