1084 warp problem

KCorn

Well-Known Member
Hey gang! I recently competed 2 blades out of Aldo's 1084. They are 3/16" thick and about 8 inches long. I heated them to just past non-magnetic, held them there for a couple of minutes and quenched in Maxim Oil DT-48. I then tempered at 400 for 1 hour for 2 cylcles. After removing from the oven I noticed that they had both warped. When quenching I was careful to move the blades edge to spine very carefully. What am I doing wrong here? Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated!
 
Did you grind the bevels prior to heat treat? And if so, how thin did you take the edges? In my experience, 2 things that all but eliminate warping is thermal cycling (whether forged or stock removal), and leaving things "thick" prior to heat treating. Personally I leave edges about the thickness of a nickel or more (thats .080"+). Warping is all about how rapidly heat leaves/is sucked away in one area versus another.....if things are "thin" those area cool much more rapidly then thicker areas, which means you get "motion" that varies depending on how slowly or quickly the heat is leaving one area versus another. The simplest terminology for it is "Asymmetric features". Of course none of us can grind exactly the same on each side of a blade, which creates the asymmetric features, the simplest compensatory measure is to leave things "thick".

For example, in my shop, when it comes to heat treating ANY steel that is less then 3/16", it gets profiled, then heat treated.... grinding is all done post heat treat.
 
Everything Ed said x2. Just out of curiosity, how much warped. I don't think I've ever seen a blade come out "dead flat". (Haven't seen many go in that way either). Straightening or grinding out warp is part of the knifemaking life - way more so with oil quench stuff.

Thermal cycling does help, but good luck trying to get agreement on what that should be. Some think it should be Normalizing and then grain refinement. Others think a stress relief cycle. Others think multiple stress relief cycles. Then they get into decarb potential - length of soak - cool to black or to room temp???? Aargh! :3:

The masters don't agree. Find what works for you.
 
Let me reinforce what Ed said about varying cross sections as a major contributor to distortion. On heating steel expands until you reach the point where things start going into solution, or what most knifemakers call “critical”, at this point the steel noticeably contracts until the conversion is complete. If there are thin sections attached to thicker sections obviously one of those sections will be contracting while the other is expanding if the heating is fast and continuous. This is why industry employs things like pre-soak holds to equalize the temperature throughout before proceeding with the high heat. On cooling the steel is contracting until you reach the temperature at which it begins to harden (in this case around 400F) at which point it expands drastically and rapidly, like speed of sound rapidly. Here the same is true as before of differing cross sections, thin and thick are going to move in opposite directions. This is why industry employs things like marquenching to keep complex shaped parts useable. Since I use the marquenching process I just did a batch of blades that included two kitchen knives that had edges ground to .010”. By quenching to 420F and allowing the whole cross section to equalize before continuing the hardening process they came out straighter than many other blades I do, and with a lovely 66HRC. In a conventional quench the edge would be expected to take the all too familiar ribbon effect.

These are just a couple of the most common contributing factors to distortion, but the topic is complex and endless with any number of factors, including the phase of the darn moon for all we know. In that same batch of knives I had a longer hunter blade come out of the quench and before my very eyes warp more severely than any knife I have ever made. I started to straighten it but watched more “s” curves begin as I worked it, so instead I put it in the vice and intentionally snapped it. With that amount of unexplainable distortion it was obvious that that knife had serious variables that I could not account for and thus I had no idea how badly something could be off inside it. The fractured grain size was as smooth as glass and the homogeneity was impeccable for damascus, but obviously there was something going on there. But the snapping itself gave me some data on the strength to ductility curve during the martensitic transformation, something that is so brief that we rarely get to explore; if I had waited another 8 minutes the break would have occurred in an entirely different manner.


The fact is that you could do everything right and still have some distortion. Steel is not a perfect substance and is made up of inconsistent structures. The best way to avoid it is to do everything as evenly as possible, heating, cooling, grinding normalizing, annealing, stress relieving etc… to keep the strain energies stored in that inconsistent structure balanced the best we can.
 
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Thanks guys. Appreciate the thoughts here. I have never tried thermal cycling the blades before heat treat since I do not forge at this point. I'm going to give that a try and see if that helps. I'll probably start heat treating prior to grinding as well. One question, can you still develop a hamon if you clay coat and quench an unground blade? Not a big issue but I would like to get ahold of some 1075 to play around with. Thanks again for the advice and info!
 
You could still develope the hamon, but if you grind it you will likely smear/erase a lot of it's delicate nuances.
Another thing to consider it is that often the most activity is very close to the surface. In any case just leave a bit of an edge thickness to be safe but do most of the shaping before ht if you look for hamon.
 
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