1084 vs 1095 damascus

[Cody Hofsommer]

I have been using 1084 and 15n20, but I am considering switching to 1095 and 15n20. After a couple folds, wouldn't the carbon even out to about the eutoid point? Then there would be the difference in manganese. How would this effect the end product? And advice or opinions?

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

From the standpoint of the end product (the damascus), you're likely not going to be able to tell any difference.....unless, you happen to get some 1095 that is on the lower end of it's manganese "new' spec.....then your not going to be physically able to harden it.

Since industry messed with 1095 specs a few years ago, it has no place in my shop.

Concerning the carbon "evening out", unless your welding technique is very poor, that's not going to happen considering the nickel in the 15N20. Personally, I stick with 1080 or 1084 because it's consistent and predictable.... there's no way I would trade that for the possible pitfalls of 1095.

 

[Cody Hofsommer]

Thanks Ed, I didn't realize 1095 wasn't as consistent.

I knew nickel stopped carbon migration (if that's the right term), but thought that was more pure nickel because they say it won't weld to itself, and 15n20 will. I guess that has nothing to do with carbon migration though!

Would buying the 1095 from someone like Aldo make a difference?

My thought for that is that I found out at Tracey's hammer-in the Uddeholm has 15n20 in .230 thickness and I like my "dark" layer to be a little thicker then the "bright". I haven't found 1084 in .375, but Aldo has 1095 in .375".

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

IF Aldo is still having his 1095 made in Germany, then that would be the ONLY 1095 I'd trust. I've always told folks that for the highest quality steel, go to Aldo.

Were it me, I'd go the other direction on the thicknesses.... personally, I use 1/8" 1080 or 1084, and .060-.070" 15N20. If I want thicker dark layers, I will double or triple stack the 1080/1084 in the billet(s). Likewise, if I want thicker bright layers, I will double or triple (or more) stack the 15N20 in the initial billet(s).

What size steel you use is usually dictated by your equipment..... me, I use 1 1/2" wide material X 8", and my starting billet is generally 40-50 layers (give or take). Doing this means you expose the steel to the heat fewer times to achieve the layer count you want.

One of the simplest things a persona can do to get various patterns/appearances in damascus is to realize there's no rule about having to stack billets 1 to 1..... think outside the box, vary the stacking, and you can get many different appearances from the same "pattern".

 

[Cody Hofsommer]

That does make sense, I guess I was looking at the Number of total welds, but there would be more total heat(s). If I was looking for 200 layers, and started with 50 layers, I could weld, draw out 4 times as long, restack and weld and be done. A total of 52 welds, but only 2 welding seauences. With 10 layers, weld and draw 4 times, cut and stack, weld and draw 5 times, cut and stack and weld. 13 welds but 3 welding sequences. With this senario, the 10 layer billet would have to be longer to have the same volume of steel.

There would be more layers to grind clean to begin with, less heat, more welds. Every weld is the potential for a failure, but not that big a deal. I do like how thicker pieces tend to warp less in the initial stack, but more mig weld can prevent this.

So... Which is worse for the end product, time at temp, or more potential weld failures.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

Which is worse for the end product, time at temp, or more potential weld failures.

Obviously many things COULD go wrong from either viewpoint.... but, as long as your technique is sound and you produce good welds, I personally feel that "time at temp" gives far more chances of producing something inferior, versus the potential for weld failures.

Many times thinking "outside the box" will be very helpful. In the case of "folding", I discovered a couple of things that boosted my success rate to nearly 100%.....

1. Once you weld the initial stack, draw it out into as long a bar as your comfortable handling....... allow it to slightly cool down.

2. Grind both side of that bar off....using an angle grinder. And here's the "trick"..... make sure the grind marks from the angle grinder run ACROSS the billet/bar, NOT LENGTHWISE...... and that you slightly "scarf" the edges (I just drag the running angle grinder down each edge at an angle) regardless whether you're using borax, anhydrous, diesel, kerosene, or whatever flux....those grinding marks that run across the bar create tiny channels that allow any flux, slag, or anything else you don't want in there to be forced out of the welds.

Finally, don't get stuck in the mindset that you have to fold a billet in half. Often times I will create a initial billet of 50 layers..... draw it out, grind off both sides, then divide and cut it into equal length (usually 4-6" for me) and then restack those pieces. For example, say I take 6 pieces @ 50 layers each and restack..... I'm at 300 layers with TWO welding sequences. More often then not, I will have 5-6 FEET after the initial weld/drawing, and have enough cut pieces to make 2-3 billets/bars.

Hopefully that all makes sense.