What to look for in a Horizontal grinder?

rhinoknives

rhinoknives

Well-Known Member
I am going to get a Horizontal grinder for my next big purchase!

I am a stock removal maker that loves to use quality Stainless Steel! I make Culinary Knives

I use the 5" and 2" contact wheels and flat Platen on my Hardcore Grinder, and use my KMG set up as a small wheel grinder for my 1/2" 3/4" and 1 1/2" contact wheels.

I want to get a Horizontal setup to speed things while profiling my blades.
variable speed is a plus and some kind of dust control if possible would be great too!

So! Tell me Fellow knife Dogs! what kind of Horizontal Grinder do you have and what do you like about it and what do you think any short comings are?
And what do you wish you had purchased instead?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated!

Thanks guys! Go ahead and sound off! :s12205:

Laurence

www.rhinoknives,com/
 
I made my own, but I rebuilt it at least three times ! It works good, but it could always be better. If I were to buy one, I would look for one that has good sized work rests and has the ability to adjust with one easy knob up and down the full width of a 2" belt. Tracking the belt up an down is not the way to go for using up the belt! Also I would get one that uses the same sized belts that your other grinders use. Of coarse one that changes wheels easy or has rotating ladder system to spin the desired wheel in position. And a variable motor is a huge plus. K&G supply used to sell the most awesome machine that had all these features, It was pricey, but I always wanted one. Good luck with your purchase!
Clint
 
Sampson knifeworks said:
I made my own, but I rebuilt it at least three times ! It works good, but it could always be better. If I were to buy one, I would look for one that has good sized work rests and has the ability to adjust with one easy knob up and down the full width of a 2" belt. Tracking the belt up an down is not the way to go for using up the belt! Also I would get one that uses the same sized belts that your other grinders use. Of coarse one that changes wheels easy or has rotating ladder system to spin the desired wheel in position. And a variable motor is a huge plus. K&G supply used to sell the most awesome machine that had all these features, It was pricey, but I always wanted one. Good luck with your purchase!
Clint
Click to expand...

Thanks, First to Gahagan.
Yes! one where the belt runs horizontal is key!

To Clint Samson,

Your point about getting one where you can adjust the belt for the full two inches is a great feature to look for.
I run all 2x72" belts for the variety and length of belt life.
The rotating wheel system is cool but pricy, I do have a motto about buying equipment!
Only Cry Once!! Buy the best you can possibly afford, Maybe even more since the machine will make money for me.

Thanks again guys!
Anyone else have some comments on their horizontal Rig?

Laurence
www.rhinoknives.com
 
The beaumont has the extention so it will run the 72" belt I belive it is something like ef72. That is the set up I run so I dont have to buy multiple size belts.
 
Laurence,

You mentioned dust collection.
Unless you buy a super-high-dollar industrial machine with built-in spark arrestor, you're probably gonna have to rig up your own dust collection.

I suspect the primary reason for lack of dust control on the types of machines we use is because so many of us use our equipment for both metal and wood.
Once you get wood dust in the dust collection system, it's nearly impossible to remove short of physically taking it all apart and wiping/washing it out.

The best solution for this is to have a movable, stand-alone dust port hooked up to a collector dedicated for metal.

My portable woodworking tools are Festool, and the primary reason I use that brand is because the heart of the entire "tool system" is effective dust collection.
The CT-22 has HEPA filtration. I use a mini cyclone between the tool being used and the vacuum.
Whenever I want to use the unit for metal, I empty and wipe the inside of the cyclone, change out the hoses, and install the spark arrestor on the vacuum. I also switch bags in the vacuum, but I have heard of others who don't bother with that, as they feel that between the cyclone and the spark arrestor there are no worries.
But I still switch bags.
Probably takes me less than two minutes to go from wood to metal.

Anyways, not to take the thread away from the star of the show (horizontal grinders), but you asked about the possibility of dust collection. The people making these machines have no idea if you're using approved spark removal or not, so it only makes sense for them to leave the liabilities of dust collection up to the end user.
 
Rob45,

Thanks for your comments. I have wondered about those Festool machines? Along with the crappy name implying their quality their was the point that they are expensive.
I wasn't sure what to make of them. Glad to hear that you are happy! Yes! I've had the surprise of smoke bellowing out of the wooden box I put my shop Vac in! A couple of handles of Ironwood and then grinding some Damascus had me running for the fire extinguisher! It wasn't really bad once I got the plastic shop Vac can open.

It did give me the inspiration to clean out the can when changing from wood to metal work!

I was thinking of maybe a down draft table underneath the Horizontal rig ? If possible?

Thanks and I will look into that brand!

Laurence

www.westsidesharpening.com/
 
Would you be willing to pay as much as $2500.00 plus freight for one? Without dust collection,I use a shop vac for dust collection on mine.
 
Calvin Robinson said:
Would you be willing to pay as much as $2500.00 plus freight for one? Without dust collection,I use a shop vac for dust collection on mine.
Click to expand...

Hello Calvin,
AKA Cookie Eater,
2500 bucks for a Festool? I think they start around a $1000.00 or are you referring to a Horizontal grinder? Downdrafts are a couple of hundred at Rockler's.
Yes, I use a Shop Vac with a funnel scoop below the 5" wheel of my Hardcore or the KMG. The Coote is in a empty corner of the shop and I just have to sweep up.

I always wear my 3M half face Respirator and Safety rated eye Glasses.

So please do tell! What is 2500 Bucks plus?

Laurence

www.westsidesharpening.com/
 
I watched the video of the horizontal model offered by Beaumont Metal Works.
It looks to be very well-designed.
With the motor extension option, it looks like the entire unit could be unclamped from the table and stored in a corner!

Other options might be what I call the "convertible" grinders that flip on their side. Sort of a 2-in-1 deal. Examples like Moe's Grinder by Wayne Coe, the TW90. etc.
I've never used one of these, only checked 'em out, so somebody who's actually used one will have to chime in on likes/dislikes.

I've owned a Grizzly edge sander (G0563). That thing is built better than a Mack truck! Takes up quite a bit of shop space; probably weighs over 500#.
More than enough power, and versatility out the whazoo. All the adjustment you could ever hope for.
Too bad it's one speed and uses huge belts. (Custom belts can be pricey.)
But it's a woodworking machine; excellent for a small production shop. A bit overkill for smaller stuff like knifemaking, but I wouldn't mind seeing the same design sized down for 2x72 belts and adjustable speed.
I'll probably build a downsized version of it someday for my own use. (As if I don't have enough on the backburner already.)

Speaking of which, maybe the $2.5K that Calvin mentioned was a hint at supplying you with a good grinder, or knowing someone else who will.
 
Hi Laurence,
I think you misunderstood me, you want to be able to adjust your work tables up an down the width of your belt. Adjusting the belt tracking should be just for that. I would avoid the machines with fixed work rests or "tables". I think the new machines that have the tilting tables for horizontal and vertical use need to be looked at and was thinking of converting a few of my vertical machines to work this way.
Good luck with your quest!
Clint
rhinoknives said:
Thanks, First to Gahagan.
Yes! one where the belt runs horizontal is key!

To Clint Samson,

Your point about getting one where you can adjust the belt for the full two inches is a great feature to look for.
I run all 2x72" belts for the variety and length of belt life.
The rotating wheel system is cool but pricy, I do have a motto about buying equipment!
Only Cry Once!! Buy the best you can possibly afford, Maybe even more since the machine will make money for me.

Thanks again guys!
Anyone else have some comments on their horizontal Rig?

Laurence
www.rhinoknives.com
Click to expand...
 
Sampson knifeworks said:
Hi Laurence,
I think you misunderstood me, you want to be able to adjust your work tables up an down the width of your belt. Adjusting the belt tracking should be just for that. I would avoid the machines with fixed work rests or "tables". I think the new machines that have the tilting tables for horizontal and vertical use need to be looked at and was thinking of converting a few of my vertical machines to work this way.
Good luck with your quest!
Clint
Click to expand...

Hello Clint,
Your right about looking at the newer 90/45 machines and converting a Vertical to a 90/45.

I was looking at my three grinders, The Hardcore, The KMG and the Coote to see about putting a door hinge etc, on one of them?

Thanks for your help!

Laurence

www.westsidesharpening.com
 
My opinion is slightly biased as I designed this grinder below but it does vertical and horizontal.
Currently setup w a 5" and a 1" wheel.
Now what do I look for in a horizontal grinder, the ability to put any sized contact wheel in with no tools and quickly.
Ability to raise/lower and tilt the toolrest.
wilmont1.jpg
 

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cwilliams said:
My opinion is slightly biased as I designed this grinder below but it does vertical and horizontal.
Currently setup w a 5" and a 1" wheel.
Now what do I look for in a horizontal grinder, the ability to put any sized contact wheel in with no tools and quickly.
Ability to raise/lower and tilt the toolrest.
wilmont1.jpg
Click to expand...

I like this grinder...........allot
Looks like the one I've been dreaming about.
 
cwilliams said:
My opinion is slightly biased as I designed this grinder below but it does vertical and horizontal.
Currently setup w a 5" and a 1" wheel.
Now what do I look for in a horizontal grinder, the ability to put any sized contact wheel in with no tools and quickly.
Ability to raise/lower and tilt the toolrest.
wilmont1.jpg
Click to expand...

That is one sweet grinder you have designed there and it is a top contender for my next purchase!
Could we put a 5' drive wheel and a work rest with a 70 durometer and a 2" and then the small wheel attachment on this Baby? That would be three work rests.

What would that do to our speeds on a Variable 1.5hp? It should be ok? right?

Thanks Laurence

www.westsidesharpening.com/
 
Last edited:
rhinoknives said:
Could we put a 5' drive wheel and a work rest with a 70 durometer and a 2" and then the small wheel attachment on this Baby? That would be three work rests.

What would that do to our speeds on a Variable 1.5hp? It should be ok? right?

Thanks Laurence

www.westsidesharpening.com/
Click to expand...

The compromise with any multiple-diameter wheel assembly is that belt surface speeds should be limited to safe RPM of the smallest wheel.
That's why any supplier of the small wheels will tell you to slow the grinder way down when using them.
It sorta requires us to think backwards, but that's what has to be done to ensure that the bearings in the smallest wheel will live.

Even though the drive assembly (motor and drive wheel) will allow higher belt speeds (SFPM), the small wheels cannot tolerate the higher speeds due to the magnified RPM.

Example: Let's say you're used to working with a belt speed of around 4000 SFPM for profiling metal with your current grinder.
Now you want to have a more versatile grinder with not only multiple contact wheels, but different diameters for each wheel. Having multiple tool rests under each wheel would be great, too.
Such an assembly seems great because it avoids the hassle of changing out wheels, and anything that saves us time and hassle is a good thing, right?
But that convenience comes at a cost- we are now limited to slower metal removal, irregardless of the wheel diameter being used.

With the belt speed at 4000 SFPM,
... a 4" wheel spins 3820 RPM...
... a 2" wheel spins 7639 RPM...
... a 1" wheel spins 15,279 RPM...

So the compromise is that the entire machine needs to operate at a (relatively) slow belt speed. As mentioned, "how slow" depends upon how fast your smallest wheel is spinning.
The benefit is being able to quickly move from one profile to the next.
The disadvantage is that the larger wheels still have to operate at a slow belt speed, since they're "tied in" with the small wheel.
This compromise may be acceptable, or it may not.
Due to the RPM involved, we always have to "go slow" with the small wheels, so we're limited on how fast we can get the job done.
But if we can safely move the belt faster, we get the job done quicker.
Quite often, the faster rate of metal removal with a higher belt speed more than compensates for the time required to stop the machine and change out the wheel.

By no means am I knocking the mutiple-diameter wheel assemblies; I can think of several applications where they would be beneficial.
I'm just saying that, like everything else, they are a compromise.
In a nutshell, it simply means that the larger wheels in the assembly cannot live up to their full potential. That also applies to the flat platen if you have one.

Only you can decide the features you need, and what areas you need your machine to excel.

To reiterate, your belt speed should be limited to a safe speed for the smallest wheel being used.
Not what the drive (motor and drive wheel combination) can provide.
Not the belt speed you feel is best for the job at hand.
But the safest speed for the smallest wheel in the assembly.
 
That is one sweet grinder you have designed there and it is a top contender for my next purchase!
Could we put a 5' drive wheel and a work rest with a 70 durometer and a 2" and then the small wheel attachment on this Baby? That would be three work rests.
Click to expand...

Laurence
The grinder above in the photo is a three arm grinder, I am using one slot for the 5" wheel, the middle for the toolrest which is modular and has two arms hanging off it and the bottom slot for the small wheel attachment w 2" deep hollow return wheel attached. I think what you would like to do would require more than three slots which is something that is in development.
You did not see this photo from me if anyone asks, The grinder on the left is still in development. But what I have done with it to date has floored me. Granted most of what I do with it is similar to the above photo and requires longer belts.
What Rob45 mentions above is absolutely spot on, you can only run as fast as your smallest wheel can handle. Either that or run them fast for very short durations unless you like changing out bearings in your small wheels.
hi124.jpg
 
Thanks Rob,
I realize that a chain is only as strong as the weakest link! I'm not referring to that goofy tv show!
:biggrin: I don't mind using slower speeds. I have been profiling and bevel grinding a stack of about 25 plus blades and the thing that works for me is Slower speeds and Fresh Belts!

I have a Hardcore 2 x 72 with a 1 1/2 Hp Variable that I hardly ever run over 50% and most small wheel work is done at 25-30% top speed! There the sharpness of the belt isn't as important as with bevel grinding.

The three wheels I would like to have set up for for a Horizontal are a 5" a 2" and a 3/4" sometimes a 1" in the last column.

And as far as handle contouring is concerned I can take my time with shaping the wood correctly!

Thanks! Anyone else have any thoughts or recommendations concerning a Horizontal or a 90/45 Grinder?

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
The grinder you have shown in Horizontal would work with the two work rests with a 5" and a small wheel attachment if I just swap out the 3/4" or 1" or 2" or 1 1/2"
I have the same bearings in those wheels for just under the past ten years and haven't burned them out so I feel fine about that issue.

also All the sharpening I do on my 2 x 72" belt grinders is at no more than 20% speed. other wise it can get to hot and burn tips & compromise heat treat of the steel! I Dunk often also!

I have a bunch of projects of going like most of us and will be getting a Horizontal or 90/45o. by spring time ish!! There are so many options to look at!
Life is Good!

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
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