sugar creek kiln
- Thread starter franklin
- Start date
franklin
Well-Known Member
thanks rex will post pics before and after, just one thing is it ok not to submerge the whole blade in p-50 or dt-48 or will it start on fire. sent money order last week so pretty soon. the service from tracy and the girls kory and whoever i have missed has been great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thanks tracy two thumbs up.
McClellan Made Blades
Well-Known Member
Dang Rudy,
A knife maker and WEALTH beyond imagination! You usually don't get both at the same time, but with a family like that you must feel like you hit the Lottery! I don't get Boys either! I've got a son and a step-son, they will be in the shop for a while, learn a lot of stuff, just in time for a different season to start and then it's off to play baseball or football, not that that is a problem! No problem at all, both my boys are athletes, so it's really my pleasure! I am thankful for the time I get to spend with either of them,doing ANYTHING! So I'll continue working with their schedule, it's valuable time that is racing toward PUBERTY!!! I know if I had the same opportunities that they have, learning about knives, banging hot steel, welding, any of it, I would have been all over it! And to be able to spend time with my Dad doing guy stuff, would have been the ultimate! I realize to a degree I've made my son the way he is, don't get me wrong, he is an awesome kid! No doubt about that at all, he just won't realize what was available to him until its long gone. Something we're all guilty of at some point in our lives.
Yeah, I tend to make the big chopper, fighter, Bowie, Zombie killing potatoe pealers! I'm a big guy, with huge hands, small knives are uncomfortable to me if the handle wasn't designed seperately. If you have a 2 1/2 inch blade, for me it would need to have a 5" handle. That's difficult to get into proportions, I know a 2 1/2" blade is a lot too small and a bit silly for my example, but I was just trying to get my point across. A 3" blade with a 5 to 5 1/2" handle would look better. They still come out about 8" long OAL, and that was supposed to be a small one!
You have the benefit of a lot of years experience, while your older and wiser, I'm youger(yet still ancient) and dumber! I've been making for 2 years, BUT have been drawing my designs since the 80's, even in high school I was drawing what I thought would be a nice blade, for a specific purposes, as a teenager.
While in the Marines, I had several blades on me at all times, yea even in that company I was considered a bit strange, yet still anytime anyone needed to cut something they would always come see me, after just moments ago making fun of me for having so many, hippocrits have no bounds! Rudy, it's nice to get to know you, we'll pick up on more things in the future. Be good Buddy, Rex
McClellan Made Blades
Well-Known Member
Not sure if you get that all the way there Rudy, The FAMILY IS the LOTTERY! THE wealth IS the FAMILY! It only matters in how you think about it, going to work everyday is going to happen one way or another, once I retire...if I get there, I will still be working, EVERYDAY, the only difference will be that I will be working on my own terms! As much or as little as I want to, doing the work I want to do. I'm hoping to be making knives for the rest of my natural born days, because I can do that with my family close by and hopefully involved. Being wealthy in family, is just a differnt kind of RICH, because it has value, too. The way I see it, my happiness comes mostly from my family, seeing them do things, being with them and having the chance to teach my kids the things they need to know how to do to begin the transition toward manhood.
Wealth aint' all about money! Wealth is about what has value, more so, it's about what YOU value! I figured out a long time ago I was going to be poor most of my life, came real close to having PLENTY of money, (I won't explain), decided against it. Then I realized that while I was poor, I was still happy, and sometimes exstaticly happy! Like when I get fresh load of steel in from Aldo Bruno, or I see my son get a big hit, (football or baseball, doesn't matter.) Or helping my wife build a bookcase or table, sharing with the pride she takes in here abilities to create a useful piece of furniture. I'll keep going to work as long as I can keep the wealth I have now. You've heard it your entire life, "Money can't buy happiness", I agree, to a point with that, I think what they are saying is that it should depend on what you VALUE, more than anything else. Money is for keeping the lights on, gas in the truck, steel on the grinder! While Money can't buy happiness, never forget that "the lack of Money, can buy a whole lot of sadness!"
See, Bud, it's all about perspective, happiness is a choice. Perspective can be changed, so I just changed mine so I could be happy like I am and not worry about the decorations! Rex
And you know for a fact, that you would not give up that bank job for twice the money!
McClellan Made Blades
Well-Known Member
Franklin,
The short answer is yes! If you don't submerge a blade all the way, at 1500 degrees, it will flame up. That's not based on actual experience with p-50 or Dt-48, I have'nt used those yet, but every quenchant I have used and did an edge quench on, has flamed up, I could always blow the flame out pretty quickly. Any flame is going to damage the oil no matter how long it burns, of course the longer it burns the more damage there is to the oil. I think the bottom line is if you want to do an edge quench, do it! Use your oil for as long as you keep getting great results, once it starts breaking down, it will need to be changed. How to tell when it starts breaking down? Don't have that answer! As I started off using Canola oil, I may have HT'd 8 blades with it, then went to McMaster Carr, I bought an extra gallon and used it to keep the depth up, or should I say volume. But now I'm going to DT-48, I'm sure the McMaster Carr is probably still good, except for all the clay in it. I really don't know how to tell when quench oil has lasted it's usefullness. Anyone else now that answer? Thanks Rex
Erin Burke
Well-Known Member
+1... unpacking was a miserable experience. But all that foam got it to me safe, so I guess that's what matters. Erin
McClellan Made Blades
Well-Known Member
Franklin,
I know there are several makers that quench vertically, I'm not positive about the pro's or cons, I do know some do it that way because it's a spece issue, a vertical quench tank can be made out of pipe, say any where between a 6 to 8" pipe welded to a plate, NOT PVC, PLASTIC, ONLY STEEL! Not saying it can't be done, but just imagine bumping PVC with a 1500 degree blade!? At the least a mess, at the worst, flaming oil pouring out the side! Steel only, to be safe! (make sure it is water tight before you put oil in it), the plate makes a stand, that is pretty secure if you get one that is big enough and the thicker the less likely it will be to get knocked over. If you don't have a deep enough tank, I'd say get one, the scrap yard wil have plenty of pipe that's usable, and probably something that can be used for the base. Leaving the tang out of the quench will make it flame up, now if it will do it everytime? Don't know, I'd bet on it though, tangs are thinner both in width and thickness, so it shouldn't be holding as much heat, so I can see where in some case it may not flame up, BUT, and it's a big one, quenching vertically you just about have to be able to stick it all the way in, if (when) it does flame up, the flames are going to be going straight up toward your hands(and possibly, face). Of course,if you have a nice long pair of tongs you should be able to avoid that, but that chance is there for that to happen. With my tank, I have no idea what it was originally used for, my wife found it at her Mom's house, it was out back covered in grunge. It kinda looks a little like sheet metal, her Dad worked on Boilers, HVAC, kinda stuff, so it could have came from him. It's almost the perfect size, around 22" long, maybe 8" or so wide, and about 10" deep. I didn't give depth enough importance on my first quench tank, BIG mistake, the depth is where ALL of your volume will be, it's where you will have the majority of your oil, having the ability to fill a QT up with around 3 to 5 gallons of oil is hugely important. The volume of oil is what helps the heat be able to transfer away form the steel, if it can't do that, it won't cool as rapidly as desired. So, my answer to your question is, YES! I do believe it will still flame up, I don't know for sure if it will do it everytime, but I'd bet on it. I'd suggest checking the scrap yard, I've seen several metal boxes that would be a great quench tank, for real cheap. Of course there is always building one, which is one of the projects I have in mind, I just look for excuses to weld ANYTHING! Hope this helps, personally I think it would be best to go to a horizontal style tank, I guess that's because that's the only kind I've used, it may be personal preference, or there may be some added benefits to a vertical quench I don't know the answer to that. Thanks, Rex
McClellan Made Blades
Well-Known Member
McClellan Made Blades
Well-Known Member
I guess, because I bought the large kiln, they filled the inside almost full, as well as the outside of the kiln, on the corners and any where there was extra space. Mine was so secure the UPS monkeys couldn't (and didn't) damaged it! There was even a pile of foam across the top, the folks at Sugar Creek put a piece of cardboard to keep it off the kiln, so it was perfectly packed!
Franklin, you've got a good one, enjoy the process, it will be a little scary at times, but you can do it. Like when you 1st started making knives, HTing steel is about the same, keep it simple! You know you can HT 1084 with a forge, so it's easy using a kiln. The biggest difference is you can be more precise, nailing the exact temps you want to hit, and experiment with a little higher and little lower if you want to try tweeking the process. Once I got the results I was looking for, I set the "recipe" in the computer control and left it. It does make it so much easier. Do you intend on doing any clay coatings, for hamons?
3 Minutes?!! Wow, it took me and my wife like 30 minutes! The only difference I can see is the size, and time, I bought time 2 years ago, so they may be doing things differently now. Enjoy Bud, Rex
franklin
Well-Known Member
thanks guys its up to 1300 as we speak. rex yes i am planing to do hamons and everything elsei can try. allready do hamons with forge but got a feeling this will be diffrent. i see what you mean about watching the door thats the only thing i would tell them to change looks solid and well made. thanks to tracy and the girls everything went great. iread somewere in a post not to put in blade to the back cuz its hotter is that true in your oven rex? and to anyone else who is looking at one as of so for two thumbs up from this dog.
McClellan Made Blades
Well-Known Member
Franklin,
With your's being the small kiln, I'm thinking the temp is going to be pretty accurate, mainly because of where the thermocouple is located, it should be right behind the computer controller, which will put it about the center of the kiln. I bought the Large Knife making Kiln, the larger kilns might have an area that could be hotter and/or cooler. There are a few things to keep in mind, of course you want the blade to get to the target temp, but you also have to be able to get it out of the kiln and into the quench in about 2 to 4 seconds...SAFELY! With the large kiln, I addressed this issue by placing the blade area of the knife in my kiln so that the blade itself is in the area of the thermocouple, that way I'm pretty confident that it is at the target temp. While keeping the tang pointed towards the door, it is fairly easy to grab the tang with my tongs, while pulling it out I turn it over so the edge is facing down, I have my quench tank located beside my kiln so I can do all of this in one fluid motion. And then into the quench keeping the tip pointed toward the other end of the tank I move it back and forth, never going side to side, I agitate it this way pretty fast, without splashing the quench oil out of the tank. I do this for about a slow 30 count, and it's usually cool enough when I get done to handle it bare handed. Don't touch a blade you 'think' is cool enough, make sure it is cool enough before you touch it.
Hamons shouldn't be much different, you'll be able to be more precise on the temp, which will give you the ability to experiment with the right temp that will bring out the hamon that much better and get the right hardness in the blade edge. I do a differential HT on all of my knives, Hamons give a blade a distinct "fingerprint", that can be beautiful, but the differential HT is what I'm after. Since, I mostly make big knives, I wanted the ability to get the differential HT correctly, without having to draw the spine back. It's probably more about preference, I know some guys can do a soft back draw and get a hamon to die for, my experiences were not that good, so I stick to the clay. It helps that I like to polish, if you don't like to polish you'll be in for a rude awakening! I have spent upwards of 40 hours + polishing a blade, so enjoying the process helps a lot!
One of the things I highly recommend for everyone to do, is to do a few cold practice runs, use a blank or any knife shaped piece of steel similar to the size and weight of the knives you make, and act like it's hot. Focusing on getting the blade from the kiln to the quench tank in one smooth motion. Start with the door closed, with ALL of your safety equipment on, just like it would be if it actually were hot. It isn't easy getting a 1500 degree piece of steel from point "A" to point "B" in 2 to 4 seconds, practicing will build confidence, it will get you accustomed to the things you should look out for, it is the best way to find the unknowns before you actually go hot. Learning these things before you have a hot blade in your grip could be the difference between success and failure. Speaking of failure, don't be afraid to fail a time or 2. Fear of failure can be as bad as being lazy, making a mistake is OK as long as you learn from it. And never give up!
HTing is extremely dangerous taking every precaution possible isn't always enough.
I also have shop rules in place, primarily because I have kids. But that really doesn't matter, no matter what your doing in the shop if someone startle's you while you're on the band saw, the grinder or the buffer it can cause you to slip or jump which can cause you to injure yourself and possibly them.
Here are some of my shop rules, this may help you or it may not, I would encourage you to make your own set of rules, most all of the rules were made because of either an incident that happened at my shop or someone else's, I'd prefer to learn from someone else's mishaps than my own, sharing experiences that others can learn from helps each other, hopefully so they don't make the same mistakes and HOPEFULLY so you can avoid injury or worse.
1. No playing, I know that sounds simple, but I've caught myself playing around with my son in the shop, I corrected it as soon as I realized how many sharp points and edges there were around us. That can be knives, saw blades, etc. There are so many ways you can get hurt in a knife shop, steel is heavy and if it isn't stored on a sturdy shelf, or out of the way it could fall and there are many ways it could cause damage and injury.
2. Keep things put away, try to have a place for everything and have everything in it's place. I especially think this is important during HT, stepping on something while holding a hot blade could cause you to trip or stumble at the very least it will break your concentration.
3. I like to let my wife know when I'm HTing, just in case something happens and I'm not in the house at a decent hour or hasn't heard from me in a while, she will come check on me, it also lets her know to announce herself when she comes to the shop, so I don't jump with something dangerous in my hands.
These rules also apply to forging as well.
These are a few of my shop rules, mostly pertaining to HTing, I think it was Don Fogg that said he made it a habit to clean his shop everyday before he got to working on knives. While he's cleaning up he makes plans for the work he's doing for the day, I'm still working on making that a habit, since I've been renovating my shop I've kept that in mind. Setting it up in a manner that I hope will make it easier to keep clean.
I hope this helps, if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask, if I know the answer I will do my best to answer them, if I don't know the answer I'll say so. If I'm basing my answer off someone else's experiences or from what I've read, I'll say so. I know this has ran too long, but when I want to get a point across, I tend to use a lot of words. Rex
McClellan Made Blades
Well-Known Member
Larry,
It really didn't take that long, I type all the time, and even though I've never had classes, I've still managed to get pretty good at it. The important part is that I got my point(s) across. I really enjoy helping ANYONE that really wants help and doesn't mind WORKING for it. It is a part of being a knife maker and being a part of this forum. Because there was someone, actually there were several guys that stepped up to help me over the last few years, it's my way to honor ALL of those that showed me the things I needed to know when I was learning all of these new things. I'm happy to have had the opportunity to give you a little bit of insight on a subject I happened to have a good bit of experience on, and have studied extensively. The main point I wanted to get across that I think is so often overlooked is safety, more so the preparations needed to handle a situation if the unthinkable did happen. The first step in becoming a great knife maker is living through the 1st 4 or 5 years, you have to get that part right!
Like I've always said, if there is anything I can help anyone with, email me, call me, PM, whatever. If it something I can help anyone with, I will share everything I know, likewise if it's a subject I'm not that good at or don't know anything about, I'm not too proud to admit that either. I consider it a privilege to help others, and believing in Karma, I know my good deeds will make their way back around eventually,
Thanks, Rex
It really didn't take that long, I type all the time, and even though I've never had classes, I've still managed to get pretty good at it. The important part is that I got my point(s) across. I really enjoy helping ANYONE that really wants help and doesn't mind WORKING for it. It is a part of being a knife maker and being a part of this forum. Because there was someone, actually there were several guys that stepped up to help me over the last few years, it's my way to honor ALL of those that showed me the things I needed to know when I was learning all of these new things. I'm happy to have had the opportunity to give you a little bit of insight on a subject I happened to have a good bit of experience on, and have studied extensively. The main point I wanted to get across that I think is so often overlooked is safety, more so the preparations needed to handle a situation if the unthinkable did happen. The first step in becoming a great knife maker is living through the 1st 4 or 5 years, you have to get that part right!
Like I've always said, if there is anything I can help anyone with, email me, call me, PM, whatever. If it something I can help anyone with, I will share everything I know, likewise if it's a subject I'm not that good at or don't know anything about, I'm not too proud to admit that either. I consider it a privilege to help others, and believing in Karma, I know my good deeds will make their way back around eventually,
Thanks, Rex