Newbie- Flat grinding help?

Michael Kemp: Oh ok! By the way, what kind of belt sander was he using to maybe be able to find one with the sides like that?

Pedro - if you are referring to letting the belt curl a little over the side of the platen - it seems like all belt grinders set up for 2"x72" belts can generally do this. I use a Coote grinder - it's affordable - especially if you can scrounge an electric motor - & very basic: http://www.cootebeltgrinder.com/ --- I'm tempted to move up to a Coe grinder: http://www.waynecoeartistblacksmith.com/Grinders.html - - - not sure which grinder that was in Andrew's video - if you want to see LOTS of grinder photos here's the thread for you: http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php...ad-about-grinders...&highlight=grinder+thread - - - most of these are 2"x72" belt grinders. Any of the 2x72 grinders cost $$$ but then you have an amazing range of belt grit/abrasives to choose from.
 
Pedro,

I see you are in Phx. I am in the north Phx area if you ever want to get together to talk and work on some blades.

Chris
 
Rex: Haha I like to see the passion in your writing. I will make sure to start ordering from Aldo as soon as I get some money and yes I would like to take you up on that offer and i'll be glad to pay the shipping. I've been here for very little and I already see how great everyone on knife dogs is. It's like a forum family in a way!
-Pedro
 
The grinder I use is a NWGS (No Weld Grinder Sander) designed by our very own BossDog, Tracy Mickley.

You can get plans at boss's store, and I'd say if your resourceful with where you get your parts (steel, motor, wheels, bearings, pulleys, etc...) you can probably get set up with a flat grinding platen for less than 500 bucks. The motor and the wheels tend to be the biggest costs. Of course, it helps to have a decent selection of tools to build the thing too....
 
ARcustomknives: I'm actually really interested in the NWGS but it does seem rather expensive when you consider I was barley able to afford a 100$ grinder. I am about to sell the tanks though. I got a about 400-500$ offer for them (I found them in the house I moved into, the previous owner could take them). So after I buy some things I find would be useful I might have around 200-300$ left. On the site it says that 300$ is enough for the flat platen and the machine but i'm not to sure about that.
 
Rex: Haha I like to see the passion in your writing. I will make sure to start ordering from Aldo as soon as I get some money and yes I would like to take you up on that offer and i'll be glad to pay the shipping. I've been here for very little and I already see how great everyone on knife dogs is. It's like a forum family in a way!
-Pedro


Pedro,
You are exactley right!!! We are all family, an extended family of sorts, with a touch of dysfunction with Murph and Janik. I would love to see everyone together for Christmas, THAT WOULD BE A HOOT!!!
PM me your shipping addy, I was inventoring steel again last night....well, not really I was having to move it again, the bench I built for the wall I planned it for was too long, so I had to move it yet again, I have plenty to spare you a few pieces. The beauty of using 1/4 in stock, <!IMHO!> , is that you have room to make PLENTY of mistakes, and still be able to fix them and save the blade, this is Aldo's best forging steel, again that is my opinion, it is 1084, 1 1/2in wide, by 1/4in thick, I think I can get 2 to 4 bars about 9 inches long in a flat rate box safely. Do keep in my this isn't flat ground, so you will have to make the sides flat, this is primarily forging steel, but I have made several knives using the stock removal method, not much difference really,with thinner stock you won't waste so much of it by grinding so much off. This stuff is dead soft, easy to file, and a dream to HT. I can give you further instruction for HTing as well as many others here that have stepped up to show you the way! I imagine Doug, can give you better info than I can, I can't tell you exactley how everything changes, I understand it, to a degree, but for me to type it out would probably end up a book! I'm really not all that long winded, I just want to get my point across, especially when explaining a process, where there are so many areas for error.

Actually HTing this steel wouldn't take alot of words, because with a forge it's the simplest, heat the steel to Non Magnetic, that means get you cheap magnet like the little ones Harbor Freight sales, I have mine hung from a wire, once you get your blade red hot in the forge, pull it out and test it to see if it attacts the magnet, if it does put it back in and let it soak for 2 to 3 minutes, once that time has passed you have to already be ready to quench, the best off purpose quench, I think is Canola oil, there are several others like peanut oil, I've heard of burnt motor oil, used transmission fluid, that list can go on and on. When your ready to buy a commercial grade quench I would highly recommened Maxim oil, 5 gallons, I think is 62.50 if I remember correctly, + shipping, they're in Texas (and they guy there made this quench up for Knife Dogs!) so it shouldn't be too bad to you and that will last you a long long time. Anyway, you want a minimum of about 2 to 3 gallons, for best results, I have quenched in less and did not get the best results, so you will need a tank or a tube, if you can weld I think the verticle quench is the way to go, a 4 to 5" square tubing, welded to a considerable base plate is perfect, I haven't done the volume on that yet, but I'm thinking (for me) about 2.5 to 3 feet tall, to hold enough oil without getting the oil too hot when quenching multiple blades, or really big ones. Or with a horizontal tank, it's done pretty much the same way, coming out of the forge, go straight into the oil, never agitate it side to side, always agitate it tip forward and back so you want a tank big enough to be able to move the blade in, move it aggresively back and forth for a slow count of 30, once your done with that it'll be time to finish it, Ok that's enough for now, I've already gotten this too long, so I'll stop now. Go ahead and send me your mailing address, and I'll get it in the mail tomorrow, Thanks, Rex
 
Rex: Haha a christmas forums. Tha'd be hectic but great!
Ones of my best friends a while back was named Aldo, so that also inclines me to buy from him :p.

Oh alright, I can't weld yet but i'll find something to put oil in. I will probably use old car oil or the canola for now. How long does oil last for heat treating?

It's alright to type long things. They're always interesting and it's nice to have details.
 
ARcustomknives: I'm actually really interested in the NWGS but it does seem rather expensive when you consider I was barley able to afford a 100$ grinder......

..... On the site it says that 300$ is enough for the flat platen and the machine but i'm not to sure about that.

Not trying to speak for Andrew, but, to the contrary, the NWGS is very affordable when you consider the type of machine you're building.

The real cost will vary from person to person.
Some people have access to steel scrap, while others have to purchase it new.
Some people can find deals on a suitable used motor; others purchase new.

I understand that funding is nearly always the primary obstacle, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and a quality grinder doesn't have to be either.
The big ticket items are motors and contact wheels. A flat platen doesn't even need the large contact wheels, so that would be a huge savings.
You need a drive wheel, which is slightly more than $50. Idler wheels are slightly under $50. Small contact wheels are about the same price as idlers, and I would recommend those instead of idlers simply to gain more versatility from your machine.
Deals on motors can be found, but you have to look and come across the right opportunity.
Everything else for the project can be considered small-ticket items and acquired piece-by-piece.

The point is, it doesn't have to be purchased all at once.
After it's all said and done, the possible $300-$500 total you spent has provided you with a machine that could otherwise cost well in excess of $1000. The primary difference being that you bought it a little at a time, and used your $100 sander to "get by" in the meantime.

For that matter, you may decide you do not need a machine with such capabilities. But I certainly would not call the NWGS expensive; rather, it is what I call value.


Rob
 
Pedro,

I am also new to knifemaking and have been trying to find the best process for me to add consitancy. What I wanted to add here is I just purchased the bubble jig. I have found it allows me to get consistant grands with minimal error. I would highly, highly, highly recommend this product. I purchased the plung jig with it for a total cost of $75. I feel it has paid for its self in the first 5 blades.

I wanted to add a little on the grinder. I built a No weld grinder. It is a great machine for the guy getting started on a budget. Tracy has added what I think to be a incredible attachement of a swing arm pattern. I built this with a 8" wheel. With the swing arm you get the versatility of a Platten, 8" or 10" wheel, 2" wheel, and flex belt. I built my swing arm for less then $300. The large wheel is your biggest expense. The swing arm has allowed my to do everything from hollow grinds, flat grinds and handle shapping on the flex belt. For the money you can not go wrong with the No weld grinder with flex belt attachment.

I wanted to thank everyone for imput on the forum. I have found it to be in valuable as a new knifemaker.
 
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Not trying to speak for Andrew, but, to the contrary, the NWGS is very affordable when you consider the type of machine you're building.

The real cost will vary from person to person.
Some people have access to steel scrap, while others have to purchase it new.
Some people can find deals on a suitable used motor; others purchase new.

I understand that funding is nearly always the primary obstacle, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and a quality grinder doesn't have to be either.
The big ticket items are motors and contact wheels. A flat platen doesn't even need the large contact wheels, so that would be a huge savings.
You need a drive wheel, which is slightly more than $50. Idler wheels are slightly under $50. Small contact wheels are about the same price as idlers, and I would recommend those instead of idlers simply to gain more versatility from your machine.
Deals on motors can be found, but you have to look and come across the right opportunity.
Everything else for the project can be considered small-ticket items and acquired piece-by-piece.

The point is, it doesn't have to be purchased all at once.
After it's all said and done, the possible $300-$500 total you spent has provided you with a machine that could otherwise cost well in excess of $1000. The primary difference being that you bought it a little at a time, and used your $100 sander to "get by" in the meantime.

For that matter, you may decide you do not need a machine with such capabilities. But I certainly would not call the NWGS expensive; rather, it is what I call value.


Rob

Rob,
I completely agree. And there are always "work arounds" for most parts if you are patient or have enough ingenuity. For instance, you'll save quite a bit if you go to a scrap yard and dig through piles of cut offs and scrap for your steel. For wheels, you might even try skateboard wheels for your 2" platen wheels. I know guys have used them with some success on other grinder builds. If you have access to a metal lathe, or a friend with one, you might even turn your own? Maybe even go down to the local schools and see if you can get a student to make you some... I don't know.

I actually built mine a little at a time as I could afford parts and pieces. Same with my heat treating oven. Now, with the knives I can make using the machine, and could probably sell enough to buy another NWGS in not too much time.

It's definitely a great investment that can easily make your money back if you put the time and effort into it. I'm not saying it will happen overnight by anymeans, but it will happen.

And if you make the proper adjustments and build it well, I see little reason why it can't make knives that are just as good as those you would make on a KMG, Bader, Square Wheel, or any of the other $1500 to $2000+ dollar grinders out there.
 
Rob,
I have a question about the drive wheel, all that I've seen have always been aluminum, machined to shape, I've never seen a contact wheel used as the drive wheel, so I'm ASSUMING there is a reason they aren't used for that purpose, my question is why couldn't a contact wheel be used for that purpose? It would save big bucks and they are easy to get. I've been contiplating building a horizontal grinder, basing my design off the NWG and Beaumonts design, I haven't put anything on paper just yet, too many irons in the fire right now, but it is a piece of equipment that would make so many tasks - SO MUCH EASIER!!

I've also been wanting to make a rotating platen for my KMG, but everytime I've been to the scrap yard I haven't found many pieces that would be suitable, I wanted to make it out of aluminum, found one piece that might work. What are the dimensions needed for this piece? I know Wayne Coe made his about as simple as possible and works wonderfully, what I don't know is how the wheels are mounted into the hole, on my KMG the tooling arms are tapped with a "bushing nut" kinda thing that works as a spacer, as well, to allow for alignment, can this be simply bolted on? Or does there need to be a bearing installed in it? I just don't know for sure how this is supposed to be done, Thanks guys for the help and if anyone has any ideas or plans for a horizontal grinder, I'd like to hear about it, Thanks Guys, Rex
 
Rob,
I have a question about the drive wheel, all that I've seen have always been aluminum, machined to shape, I've never seen a contact wheel used as the drive wheel, so I'm ASSUMING there is a reason they aren't used for that purpose, my question is why couldn't a contact wheel be used for that purpose?
I'm not saying it couldn't be done. Matter of fact, it has been done, but there are some considerations- see below.

One of the largest considerations when attempting to use a contact wheel as a drive wheel is that of solidly coupling it to the driveshaft.
Most contact wheels popular for our applications are designed to have a bearing installed for free-spinning capability around a shaft, whereas an actual drive wheel will have a means of solidly affixing itself to the driveshaft in order to transmit the power to the belt (usually via keyway and grubscrew).

Another consideration is affected by many factors, including motor torque, speed, wheel design, and the counteracting pressures.
By design, a contact wheel has a solid wheel encased in a flexible outer material, be it rubber or polyurethane. When rotating speed is applied, centrifugal force causes these materials to want to expand slightly away from the solid wheel, which is not ideal for a drive application.
Depending on the factors above, a point could be reached where the outer part of the wheel will want to slip on the inner portion, and the wheel no longer effectively transmits full power from the driveshaft to the belt.
When such a wheel is simply used as an idler to guide the belt, these concerns are of little, if any, detriment. But when used to actually drive the belt, we need to at least consider it.

That's the "theory" anyways, and if I were designing these machines, I would certainly take it into consideration.
Although it may only be theory for our application, there are real-world cases of the effect.
My first real experience with this problem was when drag racing in my younger days. "Slicks" are used for traction, and if you look at them at rest, they appear "flat". But as the vehicle picks up speed, the tire expands. Look at a picture of one taking off at the starting line compared to one halfway down the track.
That illustrates the expansion concept.

To visualize the slippage concept, take a look at the methods racers use to hold the tire onto the wheel. Screws will be installed around the perimeter of the wheel, mechanically affixing the tire to the wheel.
Of course, this exemplifies more extreme conditions. Will any of it matter for something like our grinders? I don't know. But the goal is to transmit power, and any type of machinery will have a weak link.

For some, the weak link is the motor (stalling out).
For others, it's belt tension, meaning the belt slips on the drive wheel due to inadequate tension.
I know Wayne Coe has mentioned that sometimes people have actually applied enough pressure to tilt the machine if it is not held down (illustrating motor power requirements). In this case, all the "links" are strong enough that the foundation (machine not being bolted down) becomes the weak link.

So if you use a contact wheel as the drive wheel, it becomes another "link". Whether it makes a difference or not is going to depend on all the other variables (motor torque, speed, belt tension, wheel construction, etc.).

But first you have to have a design that solidly couples to the driveshaft.
An example is the Grizzly, where the drive wheel can also function as a contact wheel. But I find it interesting that such designs are nearly always a single speed, allowing expansion of the two-piece wheel to be consistent. It would be interesting to see if any problems become evident if speeds were increased on those designs. If speeds vary, so will centrifugal forces, which is bound to have an effect on wheel expansion.
Again, I don't know. I don't own such a design, nor have I used one. Surely someone out there has modified theirs and can report on the results.

In the end, it all depends on many variables, especially wheel construction itself. Exactly how the outer contact surface is affixed to the inner portion of the wheel is paramount, and there are lots of ways to do this.
When I was younger (fresh out of high school), I got a job at Mid-States Rubber Products. You would be surprised how much back-and-forth banter went on between "our" engineers and "theirs" (the customers).

Lots of different ways to skin the proverbial cat (please note the use of the word proverbial), but my long-winded explanation at least lets you know the obstacles. Maybe such obstacles are why we mostly see a solid one-piece drive wheel.

Perhaps contacting someone like Rob Frink (Beaumont Metal Works) can net you more detailed explanations.

Good Luck,
Rob
 
Rex,

By the way, I forgot to mention that there are plenty of people on this forum who have successfully used a contact wheel on their surface grinders when doing a belt conversion.
But the application of pressure is considerably different in those instances.

So don't let my rabble-babble above scare you off from trying new things out. We all have different circumstances with which to contend, and what may work fine under one set of conditions may not work as well under others.

Like I said, designs like the Grizzly have made it work somewhat. But I did receive an email from someone a while back who was having tracking problems with his G1015. We narrowed it down to the fact that he always used the large drive wheel as a contact surface. Eventually, the wheel wore to the point that no matter how much he adjusted tracking, the belt would not ride where he wanted until he trued the wheel.

That's probably the biggest concern I would have. Contact wheels wear out, and if it's affixed in a solid manner (such as on a driveshaft), I hope it's both easily removable (for replacement) and easily accessible (for truing).

Just a thought. So many variables!!

Good Luck, buddy.
Rob
 
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