Newbie- Flat grinding help?

McClellan Made Blades said:
Pedro,
Fred Rowe's Bubble jig is worth every cent! I don't think it is as much a crutch as it is a learning tool,...
...the jig allows me to keep a constant angle that I couldn't normally keep with out it. The more I use it the better I get, the less I need it, thats why I say it is a learning tool. Sure there are those that spout off about grinding free hand, and if they can that is great! But if I can't, I'm supposed to quit? Heck NO, I got me a bubble jig and I make knives!!!! Sure you can grind up a couple tons of steel and a couple thousand bucks worth of belts to learn how to free hand, or you can get a tool that will help teach you how to do it, I'm all about easier, working smarter not harder,...
Click to expand...

AMEN!
The bubble jig is not magical. It took me about three blades to learn to use it effectively but now my grinds match on both sides of the blade and go more than 3/4 inch up the side of the blade. I have the greatest admiration for those who can eye ball the correct bevel angle when blade grinding but it's not in MY personal skill set. The Bubble jig only gives you a reference for holding your blade while grinding. The blade is held in your hand and controlled by your hand so there are still numerous ways of screwing up a blade. It gives me a fighting chance.
 
[video=youtube;wZ-wMxFoZx4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ-wMxFoZx4[/video]

Here's a quick vid response of what I was trying to explain in my last few posts. Hopefully it doesn't confuse you even more! hahah

Let me know if there's anything else I can help with or explain better.
 
Andrew: Nicely done video!
Pedro: I'll reinforce something one of the others said: try setting the grinder at different heights - everybody's body type works differently - find what works for you.

Ricasso & plunge lines - most bladesmiths use this style - me too mostly - but getting a nice radius is a #$@!%#. When Andrew mentions running the belt a little off the side of the platen he's talking about letting the belt curl over a little to help get that nice radius on the plunge line. And you can clean up a messy plunge line with a round file that you've ground the teeth off one side - place the ground-off side of the round file on the blade itself and use the round file teeth to clean up the plunge line - followed by sandpaper wrapped around a dowel. That's what I do anyway.

But that's just me. Awesome folks on this board. Lots of great advice to try out.
 
Andrew,

Thank you for posting the video. That should help Pedro understand it better.
Never ceases to amaze me how often a description or explanation is misunderstood, but after visual witness.....click.....

Once again, thank you.


Pedro, the help you're getting in this thread is but one example of what makes the KnifeDog forums so great.
 
Pedro, one more thing, when grinding, keep your elbows tucked in tight to your sides, to move your blade across the belt you lean with your whole body, it takes some getting use to but it works best. This keeps the blade on an even plane, once you get the hand of it, you should see an almost perfect grind line. If you don't tuck your elbows, the line will be up and down and in and out of the steel, if you start off with thicker steel you might be able to fix it, if it is thin stock, you won't. It's best to learn how to hold the blade by the edge with your finger nails, and use your fingers to add pressure to the blade, keeping it even all the way through, I know this is a lot of info, it's only because knife making takes a lot of knowledge, the more you get the easy way the less problems you should have. And ditto on the wooded stcks, preferably pait sticks, their cheap and work pretty well, profile it out just like a knife blade, and the ad in the bevels for practice, it shouldn't take more than a couple hunderd! Depending on how fast you learn! Josh is right about sharp belts, that will make a diffeence, as well. You want to put your self in the best position to successed. And lile everyone said practice ,practice and then practice some more! It is the only way, anyone can learn a new skill, epecially one you want to learn over night, just stick with it, it's about the most rewarding thng I've ever done, hop tis helps, Rex
 
I appreciate the positive feedback on the video. Sometimes it's hard to explain something in only 10 minutes or less, and I was worried I might have confused some things even more.

On thing I will also mention now that I didn't really cover in the video is what I'd all "pressure points". Unfortunately, with only one hand, this was something I couldn't really have illustrated anyway, but trying to keep a good consistent pressure along the entire grind is very important. Also important is where you focus that pressure. Push too far on the top of the blade and you'll eat into your scribe lines quicker. Push to far at the bottom and you might grind too deep and actually remove material from the spine of the blade.

Fine tuning this "pressure" or the angle of force against the blade, you can eventually learn to fine tune your grind lines and get them to go exactly where you want them.

As for what part of the blade to push on, I usually end up pushing it somewhere around the middle of the blade, as I pull it across the belt, but this might change depending on where I need my lines to go. Again, it's more something you figure out with experience, but hopefully being aware of it will help the learning curve.
 
good vid arc man were was allthis when i started DOGS ROCK pedro cant wait to see some pics even of a wooden knife then we can see how your doing, happy grinding.
 
ARcustomknives: Thank you so very much! 1) For taking the time to make a video to help me. 2) For clearing up pretty much every question I had in my head about how to flat grind. Thank you again.
-Pedro
 
Michael Kemp: Oh ok! By the way, what kind of belt sander was he using to maybe be able to find one with the sides like that?
 
Rob45: I feel really great full that so many people are helping me with this and taking the time to help me understand.
 
ARcustomknives: The video cleared up almost everything. Again thank you for taking the time. That is something to think about. I will keep that in mind next time.
 
Franklin: Haha thank you. Although I might do some wooden knives to see how the process works, for practice i'm going to use metal because then I get a sense of what metal feels like when using all these techniques. I'll try t post some later this week of the knife that I'm making right now even thought the metal is useless as a knife.
 
Pedro,

The knifemaking community is a great place to be ! The lengths that makers go to in assisting others never ceases to amaze me.

When brand new myself I got a ton of help and similar advice. I tried a couple paint stick knives but found it only helped to understand "grinding theory" in it's most basic form.
I found quickly I could grind a paint stick into a BSO (blade shaped object) in one or two passes per side and I was missing out on the learning to grind actual blades.

Grinding a blade is a MUCH slower process.
It wears out belts
It gives the oppertunity to make mistakes and begin to understand the causes and effects of grinding
It teaches you that you WILL burn your fingers while grinding and to keep your blade cool by dipping in your swarf bucket.
It goes slow so you've got time to figure out how to FIX your grinding mistakes at the grinder
It forces you to make many "approaches" to the belt with your blade. It takes practice to get on the belt without gouging either your edge or grind line.
Happy with it or not you'll end up with an actual blade that can be heat treated and made into a complete knife.


Keep in mind that grinding is just one aspect of knifemaking. Those butchered up first blades will come in handy when figuring out things like-
I want to heat treat my own blades ????????
I want to etch in ferric
I want to start using a makers mark and NEED to experiment to figure out how
I want to grind a nail nick into a folder blade
I want to experiment with a tapered tang / bolsters / guard / etc. etc. etc.

For all these reasons I'd recommend that you pick up some carbon steel or 440c stainless to start with. Wether you'll be heat treating yourself and the tools you have available SHOULD determine your steel choice.

Steel costs money ! Thats just a fact of knifemaking. Things that also cost money- electricty, abrasive belts, cutoff wheels, drill bits, hacksaw blades, et. etc. etc.

As a beginner low cost blade quality known steel is the way to go IMHO. You'll be suprized that you can get blade steel for roughly the same cost as getting mild steel from Lowes/Home Depot etc. so why waste your consumables "practicing"

Shipping steel is spendy. When you order steel try to get enough to make the shipping cost effective.

Don't get crazy and order a ton of steel though, LOL. As you progress your taste for steel will likely change with your skills and tools. 2 or 3 8 foot sticks of 1 1/2" x 3/16" is alot of steel and will likely keep you busy for a couple years if need be. (depending on alot of factors- mainly how much time you spend making knives)

Just some things from my experience that may help ya out a little or get you thinking about the stuff that happens when the grinding is done ;)

Take care- Josh
 
Josh: That makes complete sense. I'll think about that next time, before I go to a junkyard and buy whatever they tell me is knife steel. That how I bought a big chunk of T-304.
 
''Rex: Thank you very much and I can tell that bubble jig is extremely useful but i'm broke right now and when I do get money i'm looking to finally buy a tank for my plasma cutter or make myself a forge. I'm trying to sell a Co2 tank and another smaller tank. So if I have any money left over I will definitely look into getting a Jig and if you know anyone that is selling a used one please fill me in. ''

Pedro,
I bought mine last year, if I remember correctly, the cost for one is about 35.00 maybe 40 bucks, the cash you'll save in steel will cover that in no time. Go on YouTube and look up Bubble Jig, or The Bubble Jig, Mr Fred explains it beautifully, and makes it look easy, thing is it's one of the few things that I've found that was as easy as it looked!

And BTW the scrapyard will not be able to tell you knife steel from mild, they buy steel that is usually unknown, on occasion they will get something like some leaf springs, that they may know the particular type of steel it is, but that is not the norm, that'll be the exception. With cars they usually crush them whole and the leaf springs with them. The price of steel has sky rocketed again, Thanks to China having another building blitz.

DO Stick with KNOWN knife steel, it will save you so many problems, there are several things you can use that will make a decent to pretty good knife that's from re-purposed steel, but when you're learning you want your best efforts to be realized with a usable knife, save the experimenting for later on when you have more experience. Rex
 
Pedro G. said:
Rex: Oh alright. I guess you're right there. I'll have to find a steel provider soon enough then.
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Pedro,
That decision is the easiest one you'll ever make, his name is Aldo Bruno, The New Jersey Steel Baron, he has a web site (njsteelbaron.com) and he will take great care of you, his prices are about the best there is. Unless your lucky enough to have a local knife steel supplier close to you. But I would still get my 1084 from Aldo, it is simply the best steel for knife making, the easiest to heat treat and best of all makes a fantastic blade. Going to least expensive route is a must for most, but you'll soon see that once you've been bitten by the bug, it will consume you. It just about has to, in order for you to learn everything you need to, to make something worthwhile. Constant study, constantly reaching for more of everything about knives, always reading everything you can get your hands on, and then once your eye gets a little better with more knowledge, you won't be able to pick up any knife without ripping it apart visually. Attempting to figure out how everything about it was done, no matter if it is a factory made knife or a hand made. It is this study that will make you want more, if you haven't already, you'll start drawing knives. Pick up a sketch pad, and keep up with it, I have had so many, that have gotten lost over time, some I started when I was in the Marines, which was 84' to 87', the oldest I have now I think goes back to 06', that shows a life long love of knives, if I still had those first drawings, I could just about show my own evolution as a maker, through too many moves, and too much stuff they did get lost. Just try to hang on to your first no matter how bad you may think it is, you will find inspiration in it in the future, because you will draw things that you have no idea how to make, and then once your skill level catches up to your ability to draw, and design, you'll be able to make those that you didn't think were possible, it takes time, dedication, and perseverance. Quitting isn't possible, once it's in you and you get that feeling of creating something useful, that creation will always need an outlet. Look up Aldo's site, save for the things you need, never make it a financial burden, doing that will create a bitterness or a sense that it has to be a money making venture. While money can be made as a knife maker, most can't survive off that alone. My favorite maker was Bill Moran, he was quoted saying, "If you want to make a million dollars in knife making, start with 2 million!" Lots of wisdom in that man, patience is one of the most important traits you can possess as a knife maker, that and the perseverance I was talking about earlier. I know my posts get long, but passion can't be measured when your a knife maker!!! For me it has to be infinite! Hope this helps.

And BTW my offer for a piece or 2 of Aldo's 1084 is still open, you just pay the shipping, I can cut it up in small enough bars that will be good using size and fit into a flat rate box, that offer still stands, just let me know, I don't see it as charity, I see it as doing my part to be apart of the finest group of people I have ever had the privilege to be associated with. Hang around long enough and you'll see what I mean, Rex
 
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