Jigs: Curse or Cure?
- Thread starter Rock
- Start date
sharpening fixture
Keith,
I made these sharpening blocks a while ago and help get that bevel started.
I cut different angles on my chop saw and attached them to 3/8" plywood with just the right amount of gorilla glue. I only use these with higher grit trizac belts because there is some hazard sharpening edge up. A "toothy belt will grab and possibly twist your blade out of your hands. A light touch is the way to go. Once I establish an even bevel I finish the edge with an 8" stone. So far it's worked well.
Rudy
Keith,
I made these sharpening blocks a while ago and help get that bevel started.
I cut different angles on my chop saw and attached them to 3/8" plywood with just the right amount of gorilla glue. I only use these with higher grit trizac belts because there is some hazard sharpening edge up. A "toothy belt will grab and possibly twist your blade out of your hands. A light touch is the way to go. Once I establish an even bevel I finish the edge with an 8" stone. So far it's worked well.
Rudy
petie
Well-Known Member
I was taught that you are only as good as your tools. I was also taught that your hands are tools. So I guess what I'm trying to say is there are a lot of different paths to get to the same place and in this case jig or not it starts with your hands. You have to use your hands to freehand,use a jig,or use a mill in a machine shop. You have to have the skill in your hands no matter what method you use. My 2 cents no matter what your hands are the most important tool in the shop.
Fross
Well-Known Member
Being relatively new to the knife making world I have found myself trying to come up with ways to simplify the tasks at hand(especially grinding), the problem is there is nothing simpler than just using your hands... Jigs take practice just like anything else, but with any jig I truly feel that you are limiting yourself and constraining your possibilities. Using a jig will produce constant results but it will hinder creativity to a point to where I truly do not see the advantage. Speaking for myself of course, I believe that making a knife is no different than painting or sculpting, it's those small imperfections that make them so attractive. If someone wanted an absolutely flawless piece of cutlery or artwork for that matter, your local big box store sells them all day. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that I find something wrong with every blade that leaves my shop. There is a reason people are willing to pay more for a "hand made" knife, it involves more than the knife, it has just as much to do with the person behind the tools. Am I condemning those that choose to use jigs, absolutely not, I'm simply suggesting that one should at least have a firm grasp on the principles of free hand grinding before they use something that may put a strangle hold on their progression as a knife maker.
I still grind my blades free hand, but after breaking my left wrist two years ago, I still havn't regained that muscle memory I used to have. These little blocks made the difference between having lots of shop knives or actually moving them. They're the only jigs I use and really keep me from sharpening the tips right off my knives.
I wish I'd thought of it 20 years ago.
Rudy
I wish I'd thought of it 20 years ago.Rudy
I'm new but...
I have a significant amount of experience with steel in other areas, if jigs and fixtures where not used in machine work you would never get past the protype stage of many things. Prototypes are hand-crafted and in many cases works of art. With out jigs and fixtures we would not have some of the incredible antique or modern woodwork we see. With out jigs and fixtures we may as well go back to the stone age; obsidian knives anybody?
On the other hand early on Ed and a couple of others made valid points on becoming to reliant, on jigs and not learning the basics. I for one will use jigs because of the limited time I have for practice but will continue learning the basics as I go.2thumbs
I have a significant amount of experience with steel in other areas, if jigs and fixtures where not used in machine work you would never get past the protype stage of many things. Prototypes are hand-crafted and in many cases works of art. With out jigs and fixtures we would not have some of the incredible antique or modern woodwork we see. With out jigs and fixtures we may as well go back to the stone age; obsidian knives anybody?
On the other hand early on Ed and a couple of others made valid points on becoming to reliant, on jigs and not learning the basics. I for one will use jigs because of the limited time I have for practice but will continue learning the basics as I go.2thumbs
C Craft
Well-Known Member
This subject has been done to death and there is no answer that satisfies everyone!
Myself in my life before I really got into knife making I was a carpenter first and cabinet maker and furniture maker. I learned that there was an advantage at times to letting the machine do the work for me. I could expect the same results time after time.
However I also learned that there were some things when it came down to it, that no machine could duplicate, and to achieve the same results over and over required the task be done by hand.
The only way you learn to do this kind of a task is to buckle down and do it entirely by hand. Sure you’re going to screw up but, learn from your mistakes and do it again and again and pretty soon. People will look at your work and say, "you must have done that on a machine". Then you have the pleasure and telling them there is no machine made that can duplicate the same results.
Now I am not saying a jig may help you to get the basics down but until you learn to solo you will never fly! 2thumbs
Myself in my life before I really got into knife making I was a carpenter first and cabinet maker and furniture maker. I learned that there was an advantage at times to letting the machine do the work for me. I could expect the same results time after time.
However I also learned that there were some things when it came down to it, that no machine could duplicate, and to achieve the same results over and over required the task be done by hand.
The only way you learn to do this kind of a task is to buckle down and do it entirely by hand. Sure you’re going to screw up but, learn from your mistakes and do it again and again and pretty soon. People will look at your work and say, "you must have done that on a machine". Then you have the pleasure and telling them there is no machine made that can duplicate the same results.
Now I am not saying a jig may help you to get the basics down but until you learn to solo you will never fly! 2thumbs
Keith Willis
Well-Known Member
Thanks Rudy,I left this one and just came back.
It may be a handicap to work with jigs,and I am ok with that.
After being born with Spinal Bifida,having 4 back surgeries
and looking at,at least 1 more,2 hand sugeries,knee sugery
and looking at 1 more,among several other sugeries.What's
1 more handicap?
This will be my only jig I use,and unless someone shows me
a jig that may work better,i'm going to make me some of these.
Hey Rudy,what angle are they cut at?
Thanks brother,2thumbs
God bless,Keith
It may be a handicap to work with jigs,and I am ok with that.
After being born with Spinal Bifida,having 4 back surgeries
and looking at,at least 1 more,2 hand sugeries,knee sugery
and looking at 1 more,among several other sugeries.What's
1 more handicap?
This will be my only jig I use,and unless someone shows me
a jig that may work better,i'm going to make me some of these.
Hey Rudy,what angle are they cut at?
Thanks brother,2thumbs
God bless,Keith
Keith,
I cut a few of them starting at 22.5 degrees and going down 5 degrees at a time. You really can't cut just one. Which block you use is dependant on how wide your blade is and how high your grind is. For example...if your blade is 1-1/4" wide with a full flat grind, I'd use my 17 degree block because the bevel ground in the blade takes away from the 17 degrees block and actually makes the grind shallower than 17 degrees. Hopefully you wind up around 20- 25 degrees +/-.
I'm with you on the 4 back cuts and one busted wrist.
Hope it works for you.
Rudy
I cut a few of them starting at 22.5 degrees and going down 5 degrees at a time. You really can't cut just one. Which block you use is dependant on how wide your blade is and how high your grind is. For example...if your blade is 1-1/4" wide with a full flat grind, I'd use my 17 degree block because the bevel ground in the blade takes away from the 17 degrees block and actually makes the grind shallower than 17 degrees. Hopefully you wind up around 20- 25 degrees +/-.
I'm with you on the 4 back cuts and one busted wrist.
Hope it works for you.
Rudy
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Rock
Well-Known Member
Training wheels & tricycles
I think I have had a personal breakthrough on the "jigs debate" and it came through a metaphor.
Jigs can be like training wheels or tricycles. It is not only one way to learn, but it can be a way to continue indefinitely. I think a lot of old schoolers would say that you will never really understand or appreciate what you or the bicycle are capable of if you learn with the safe way or are afraid to try without it after you have gained proficiency with it.
There are just things that cannot be done on a tricycle or without taking the training wheels off and learning balance and developing strength.
I think I have had a personal breakthrough on the "jigs debate" and it came through a metaphor.
Jigs can be like training wheels or tricycles. It is not only one way to learn, but it can be a way to continue indefinitely. I think a lot of old schoolers would say that you will never really understand or appreciate what you or the bicycle are capable of if you learn with the safe way or are afraid to try without it after you have gained proficiency with it.
There are just things that cannot be done on a tricycle or without taking the training wheels off and learning balance and developing strength.
Keith Willis
Well-Known Member
Frank Niro
KNIFE MAKER
What I have been reading here is that the blade grinding jig is going to limit your advancement. For sure I would then have to say "you better throw it away". On the other hand if it is used like the milling machine that is set up to be used by jigging the piece be it a blade or otherwise, or like a CNC machine that can work off of a programe but must be set in a "jig", or the water cutting machines that many make use of a set positioning of material wheredoes the harm exsist? A maker using the CNC seems as pleased with his work as the one cutting his blade on the milling machine or hand grinding the blade.How can anyone sit back and decide for anyone else where or when the jig for grinding or anything else be used or not? And why is it that a jig for many things is okay but not for blade grinding? If the work is successful to the person doing it then the results are good. If we are saying to makers you will need a lot more than a grinding jig to get you great looking blades we may be right. Again I say so what? Several years ago I remember reading that in order for the knife to be hand crafted you had to hold the part in your hand or the tool that was being used. There would not be any jigs there and nt many surface grinders. Today, as I see it , it isn't either how the knife (blade) is made, or the materials used but how good the results are. So, if the grinding jig helps someone to get there, why not? It is being used as the lathe, milling machine or surface grinder. It's the results that count and where experience wants to suggest that the jig is bad or good, the advice is only that and doesn't ensure any positive results either way. We all advance or not at our own speed. We change the styiling, finishing of what we make and change the tools to do the work with as we go. I certainly don't feel that I'm condeming someone to poor work in the future by showing them how at this time in their progress when they have decided help is needed to suggest a jig for grinding blades can improve their work. It seems to me it is no different than suggesting a surface grinder for certain work could be a real help. There are many known makers that use all sorts of equipment to make their knives. Is there advancement at a stand still because they aren't hand grinding? Frank
James Terrio
Well-Known Member
I think it's true that relying solely on jigs or ultra-modern machinery is limiting in ways. However...
I also agree with Frank. Coal, gas or electricity, forged or stock removal, CNC or files and sandpaper... I honestly don't care. As long as the maker isn't pretending to do something he didn't, which I doubt anyone here would ever do. If the maker is achieving the design he wants and the customer is happy, it's all good!
As for me, I have a few blades profiled by Dave at Great Lakes Waterjet because I wanted a consistent batch and it turned out to be cost-effective, but the only jig I use currently is a file guide. I do 99% of my grinding and sharpening by hand partly because I just like doing it that way. Just my $.02
I also agree with Frank. Coal, gas or electricity, forged or stock removal, CNC or files and sandpaper... I honestly don't care. As long as the maker isn't pretending to do something he didn't, which I doubt anyone here would ever do. If the maker is achieving the design he wants and the customer is happy, it's all good!
As for me, I have a few blades profiled by Dave at Great Lakes Waterjet because I wanted a consistent batch and it turned out to be cost-effective, but the only jig I use currently is a file guide. I do 99% of my grinding and sharpening by hand partly because I just like doing it that way. Just my $.02
Fletch Helical
Well-Known Member
This is one of those debates that can go in forever. Like some have said there are people who believe that "doing it the way they had to do it". And others that don't think it's necessary to screw up "x" amount of blades and whatnot either. Take woodworking for example there are jigs used all the time in that craft for all kinds of things. Should someone "have" to become a master at hand cutting dovetail joints before grabbing a router and a dovetail jig? If so why?
Think of all the different tools and jigs used in wood working that are used to make joints, edges, etc. Who would agree that they believe that a person interested in wood working should be able to perfectly make box joints, dovetail joints, mortise and tenon joints, etc. by hand before making them in a jig?
There are people in almost every aspect of life who have become extremely proficient at something and it took them a lot of practice to master that. Now no matter what that craft or skill set it is it took a lot of practice and likely blood, sweat, tears, and likely some heartache to get there. Maybe some people believe that others should have to "suffer like they did" so to speak to get to a certain stage. But If there is something that can cut the learning curve down quite a bit I don't see where the harm is.
There is a debate among archers that has been around as long as the compound bow has been invented between compound shooters and traditional (recurve, longbow) shooters. The traditionalists talk about the "training wheels" on a compound and how there are guys who can literally shoot asprin out of the air with a stick and string that compound shooters can never do. However the VAST majority of compound shooters have and will maintain more accuracy than probably 99% of the traditionalists do. Their argument is "Man has hunted like this hundreds of years before the "training wheels" came out".... Of course they often leave out that the bulk of it was done in groups and everyone was flinging arrow at the same target, eventually a few of them will hit something vital.
Personally I think the bottom line is: If what you do helps YOU accomplish YOUR goal then who really cares. If someone grinds freehand, with a jig, with a file,, or with their feet does it make them any less of a knife maker?
Think of all the different tools and jigs used in wood working that are used to make joints, edges, etc. Who would agree that they believe that a person interested in wood working should be able to perfectly make box joints, dovetail joints, mortise and tenon joints, etc. by hand before making them in a jig?
There are people in almost every aspect of life who have become extremely proficient at something and it took them a lot of practice to master that. Now no matter what that craft or skill set it is it took a lot of practice and likely blood, sweat, tears, and likely some heartache to get there. Maybe some people believe that others should have to "suffer like they did" so to speak to get to a certain stage. But If there is something that can cut the learning curve down quite a bit I don't see where the harm is.
There is a debate among archers that has been around as long as the compound bow has been invented between compound shooters and traditional (recurve, longbow) shooters. The traditionalists talk about the "training wheels" on a compound and how there are guys who can literally shoot asprin out of the air with a stick and string that compound shooters can never do. However the VAST majority of compound shooters have and will maintain more accuracy than probably 99% of the traditionalists do. Their argument is "Man has hunted like this hundreds of years before the "training wheels" came out".... Of course they often leave out that the bulk of it was done in groups and everyone was flinging arrow at the same target, eventually a few of them will hit something vital
. Personally I think the bottom line is: If what you do helps YOU accomplish YOUR goal then who really cares. If someone grinds freehand, with a jig, with a file,, or with their feet does it make them any less of a knife maker?
I'm convinced some people really over think this stuff.
In my case I've done everything free hand since starting this adventure. Did I have to ? According to what I've learned along the way, I now realize...NO. I figured out how to compensate for an injury, plain and simple. If you read Keith's post on his injuries and surgeries, who can fault him (or anyone else) for finding ways to continue doing what he enjoys doing. I'm starting to wonder if my cross pein and anvil when used together could be considered jigs too.huh1
Fletch has it covered pretty well.
Rudy
In my case I've done everything free hand since starting this adventure. Did I have to ? According to what I've learned along the way, I now realize...NO. I figured out how to compensate for an injury, plain and simple. If you read Keith's post on his injuries and surgeries, who can fault him (or anyone else) for finding ways to continue doing what he enjoys doing. I'm starting to wonder if my cross pein and anvil when used together could be considered jigs too.huh1
Fletch has it covered pretty well.
Rudy
Mike Carter
Well-Known Member
I will wholeheartedly agree that equally good knives can be made freehand or using jigs. It's just that some people prefer to make their knives freehand and some people prefer to buy knives that were made freehand.
I do think it takes a bit more skill to grind freehand. Another consideration is the uniqueness of a freehand grind. Unlike knives made using templates, jigs, guides or other pre-set tools, every freehand ground knife will be a little different. The differences are a result of the makers experince, interpetation, judgement and feel of when it is right.
Those little differences are what gives a handmade knife character and makes it unique to that particular knifemaker.
I do think it takes a bit more skill to grind freehand. Another consideration is the uniqueness of a freehand grind. Unlike knives made using templates, jigs, guides or other pre-set tools, every freehand ground knife will be a little different. The differences are a result of the makers experince, interpetation, judgement and feel of when it is right.
Those little differences are what gives a handmade knife character and makes it unique to that particular knifemaker.
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Mike,
I agree with you 99 percent. I think I'd loose intrest pretty fast if all knifemaking operations required some sort of set up for jigs to complete a knife. Having already gathered the ability to go free hand is definately an asset....but circumstances change in life. The original topic between Keith and I was related to just plain sharpening....the genie got out of the bottle again.
Rudy
I agree with you 99 percent. I think I'd loose intrest pretty fast if all knifemaking operations required some sort of set up for jigs to complete a knife. Having already gathered the ability to go free hand is definately an asset....but circumstances change in life. The original topic between Keith and I was related to just plain sharpening....the genie got out of the bottle again.
Rudy
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Les George
Admin - Founding Member
Jigs are just tool, tools are nothing more than what you do with them. Knifemakers make knives with tools, simple as that.
I dont use much jigs for much of anything, not because I don't like them.
Funny observation I have made in the last few years about jigs, CNC or whatever it is that is currently threatening the purity of handmade knives, is most people that are against a thing only have a passing knowledge of it....
Not all but most. Just my observation.
I dont use much jigs for much of anything, not because I don't like them.
Funny observation I have made in the last few years about jigs, CNC or whatever it is that is currently threatening the purity of handmade knives, is most people that are against a thing only have a passing knowledge of it....
Not all but most. Just my observation.
Frank Niro
KNIFE MAKER
There seems to be another common tone here that a grinding jig will create knives the same from the same blank or outline. Here again this is only true perhaps with a certain particular jig. I can make dropped points, trailing points, clips. spear points, skinners, Persians and boot shaped blades from the one simple jig I use, and I can make them different one from another in the same pattern. BUT, I do believe too that it requires more skill to do it free hand as Mike said.As well if it helps to accomlish your goals as Fletch said, then why not?
I see on very accomplished maker who is using CNC equipment to produce repeated patterns. Some could be very involved to make by hand. Hisd work looks great and his styling is in every knife he makes. His prices always seem to be far lower than would be expected. He certainly is supplying a market that wants what he makes. Now THERE is a real jig for you !
I see on very accomplished maker who is using CNC equipment to produce repeated patterns. Some could be very involved to make by hand. Hisd work looks great and his styling is in every knife he makes. His prices always seem to be far lower than would be expected. He certainly is supplying a market that wants what he makes. Now THERE is a real jig for you !
petie
Well-Known Member
If some one has their blades cut out on a water jet and then does everything else by hand and some else does everything by hand except grind their bevels is one of those knives less handmade than the other? I don't think so.
I to used to be a carpenter and still make the occasional piece of furniture. Through the years I've used lots of different jigs for different tasks. One thing has always been the same if you tell 100 hundred guys to build a house you will see 100 different techniques to get to the same destination. If the end result is the same who really cares. There's craftsmanship involved in the process no matter what. I've seen carpenters that couldn't read a print to save their lives work right alongside some of the best print readers in the business and they both ende up with the same result. Why? Because they are craftsman just like every body here that takes a piece of steel and turns it into a beautiful and functional knife.
Bottom line is do your best,strive to get better and use what you are comfortable using to get your end result.
I to used to be a carpenter and still make the occasional piece of furniture. Through the years I've used lots of different jigs for different tasks. One thing has always been the same if you tell 100 hundred guys to build a house you will see 100 different techniques to get to the same destination. If the end result is the same who really cares. There's craftsmanship involved in the process no matter what. I've seen carpenters that couldn't read a print to save their lives work right alongside some of the best print readers in the business and they both ende up with the same result. Why? Because they are craftsman just like every body here that takes a piece of steel and turns it into a beautiful and functional knife.
Bottom line is do your best,strive to get better and use what you are comfortable using to get your end result.