A dunk bucket tip for all!

rhinoknives

rhinoknives

Well-Known Member
Well awhile back I saw this special on T.V. about Sword Smiths & Knife Makers in Japan.
Excellent and very interesting as well, The one thing I picked up in the program that wasn't even talked about was the water quench trough that the smith would drop the cherry red Blades into looked like it had green Automotive Coolant/Antifreeze in it.

So I bought a 2 gallon jug of Prestone and put it in my dunk bucket.

Mind you I am not quenching here just using this to cool the stainless steels as I grind out my Culinary knives.
I diluted it 50/50 with water just like in the truck about a month ago.

I have had a marked improvement in reduction of any oxidation on the Stainless from any droplets that don't get wiped dry.
I imagine that this would have even better results with Carbon steels as this is what the Swordsmith on the special was using.

I also found that if you are grinding hot & fast and the dunk bucket fluid gets hot, It will smell a bit like a leaky radiator! But no harm done.

As the water evaporates etc... I have just been adding more water to keep it at or near the 50/50 ratio that I started with.

I hardly use any Carbon steels, Just some Damascus once in a while.
I am interested in hearing from you forgers if you have tried this? and any results that you have had?

When I started making knives in my Garage two plus blocks from the Ocean/beach, I could literally watch Carbon Steel rust as I worked on it. My first knives were Files and 1095 & O1.

I became converted to a Stainless Steel only man very quickly!:biggrin:

Cheers!

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
Neat tip... just keep the pets away from it, it is poisonous but tastes good (or so I have heard, never tried it myself).
 
That's true,
My pet's always have fresh water in a certain bowl and I try to train my dog's to only drink out of what I give them to drink.
But you are right and thanks for the mention of the possible poison factor.

Anti-freeze has Poly-Glycol. It was a crazy Biker drink of 70's-80's to mix Anti & cheap Vodka 50/50.
Can't tell you about the taste? Never tried it!

Cheers!

www.westsidesharpening.com/
 
I used to work in a vet clinic and it happened every year at cooling system service time. Lethargic - then partial paralysis - then convulsions - about 80% death rate from kidney failure. Guess crazy bikers are tougher than dogs. :) Just one other safety note - don't confuse rad antifreeze with window washer antifreeze. I had no idea how much alcohol is in that stuff till I tried using it to put out a campfire once. :eek:
 
Laurence,
That is very interesting, but the steels the Japanese are quenching are generally in the 1070 range...maybe, probably a lower carbon content than that. I'm thinking your questioning using it to HT with? Quenching a blade in this mix, would be dependent on a few factors, the carbon content, the thickness of the cross section of the blade, the only thing I can think that would be a definite way to find out is testing, testing and more testing! If I was able I would love to see what kind of effect using this mix would have on the steel, very interesting and once I can get back in the shop and working regularly I'll give it a try, on some rough forged blade shaped thingy's, no need to put a lot of work into something and then break it! Rex
 
McClellan Made Blades said:
Laurence,
That is very interesting, but the steels the Japanese are quenching are generally in the 1070 range...maybe, probably a lower carbon content than that. I'm thinking your questioning using it to HT with? Quenching a blade in this mix, would be dependent on a few factors, the carbon content, the thickness of the cross section of the blade, the only thing I can think that would be a definite way to find out is testing, testing and more testing! If I was able I would love to see what kind of effect using this mix would have on the steel, very interesting and once I can get back in the shop and working regularly I'll give it a try, on some rough forged blade shaped thingy's, no need to put a lot of work into something and then break it! Rex
Click to expand...


Rex, I really have no idea what was in the long trough that they were dropping the swords in edge first?

It looked like auto Anti-freeze and that gave me the idea to use it because of it's anti corrosion properties.

There could have been other "Stuff" in it? It appeared to be the viscosity of water/Anti/freeze from what I could tell?

I've read that they use a water Quench on the sword blades, But it sounds like you know much more than I about their process.

Putting out a camp fire with window wiper fluid sounds like a real
Grand Fanally to the evening!:what!:

Cheers

Laurence
www.westsidesharpening.com/
 
Ya got to think it does make a little sense, ya know it is actually called "coolant"! Now I'm no kind of expert, don't think anyting like that please, I love KD because of stuff just like this, to learn from.
If the water/? had a greenish tint to it, what else could it be? Coolant has a specific look that can't be mistaken if you've fooled with enough of it, so unless they've come up with something new, which is highly doubtful since they pretty much stay true to the 1000's+ year old method they've always used.

I think it might be worth thinking about, the biggest problem I can think of is that it would be too fast. I think the active ingredient in anti-freeze is either glycerin or propylenglycol, now I'm drawing a blank as to how 1500 degree steel would react to anti-freeze/ water mix. It is interesting because while it does cool an engine it also keeps one from freezing, so now I'm kinda stumped...be funny if this could turn out to be the best quenchant ever discovered, and all we had to do was buy the cheap stuff, cut it 4 to 1, repackage and ship it out!!! Weirder things have happened! Now you got my brain hurtin' it hasn't been exercised in a while.... maybe I can get in the shop soon, this is really interesting, Rex
 
There is Polyglicol in antifreeze, I threw out the container or I could read it off.
There is a small amount of the Polyglicol in Soda pop.
To keep it from freezing.

I don't know how that would affect steel being quenched in it?

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
Most newer coolants are designed for aluminum radiators as all, or almost all, cars now use aluminum radiators, but you can still get rust somehow. Other parts in the cooling system that aren't aluminum maybe? Not sure what the interaction is

I know very little about quenching but I'm curious about this so tagging for interest
 
DropPoint said:
Most newer coolants are designed for aluminum radiators as all, or almost all, cars now use aluminum radiators, but you can still get rust somehow. Other parts in the cooling system that aren't aluminum maybe? Not sure what the interaction is

I know very little about quenching but I'm curious about this so tagging for interest
Click to expand...

Dropoint,

There are still some others besides the Aluminum like Cast Iron, Brass and other material fittings in Auto cooling systems, Water pumps etc.


Remember that I am using this as a Grinder Dunk Bucket additive, With great results so far!

I am also curious about what possible uses Rex and other Forges/Smiths can come up with?

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
Antifreeze definately does work.
Many years ago that's pretty much all I used on 1095. I stopped using it not only because of possible health issues but I discovered one day on multiple blade quenches (3) that the stuff catches on fire and is a bear to put out. This was done in a open baking pan edge quenching in a 50/50 mix. I wound up replacing some vinyl siding on my garage wall.

Rudy
 
Rudy Joly said:
Antifreeze definately does work.
Many years ago that's pretty much all I used on 1095. I stopped using it not only because of possible health issues but I discovered one day on multiple blade quenches (3) that the stuff catches on fire and is a bear to put out. This was done in a open baking pan edge quenching in a 50/50 mix. I wound up replacing some vinyl siding on my garage wall.

Rudy
Click to expand...

Rudy,
How did it do when fully submerged? All the quenchants I've used will catch fire unless the blade is completely dunked. Also was the damage due to the anti-freeze being combustible? Might be a good reason to pass on even testing it. What kind of health issues were possible? Thanks, Rex
 
McClellan Made Blades said:
Rudy,
How did it do when fully submerged? All the quenchants I've used will catch fire unless the blade is completely dunked. Also was the damage due to the anti-freeze being combustible? Might be a good reason to pass on even testing it. What kind of health issues were possible? Thanks, Rex
Click to expand...

Rex,
I never fully submerged the blades because I was using a 2" deep baking pan with a metering block in the quench. Yes, antifreeze is combustible, who knew ? I tried smothering the fire with a peice of sheet metal over the pan and when I later pulled it off, the antifreeze either was still burning or had re-ignited. The pan was on a work bench I had built along the outside of my garage, I couldn't pick up the pan because of the flames and the fact that I'd filled it to nearly the top. This in turn resulted in the vinyl siding slowly melting since it's...well....PLASTIC. I didn't want to push the pan onto the ground because of the neighborhood pets were always there eyeing a spot to drop a bomb or to spead the fire. This whole episode was just a comedy of potentially hazardous errors. It's funny now, but I was mortified at the time....I had instantanious visions of the garage, my neighbor's garage and quite possibly the entire neighborhood going ablaze over my knifemaking prowess . How would I explain to the firemen that I'm willingly poking very hot steel into a flamable liquid ? Kinda sounds nuts If you're not a knifemaker. As for health risks....nevermind antifreeze, but I've always been pretty sure that standing in a billowing cloud of anything that's been burned.....isn't good for me. (cigarettes don't count) OK, you had to ask and I hope you found this amusing but also grabbed a pearl of wisdom from it.

Rudy
 
I guess it's amusing because no one got hurt...fire scares the crap out of me, the uncontrolled kind. I think the possible testing of this is a mute point with this info...I wonder what the combustible ingredient is....hmmmm. I may look into it just to learn something and to see what ingredient in it works on Hting knife blades. Thanks Bro', Rex
 
Both ethylene glycol (231.8 F flash point) and propylene glycol (370.8 F flash point) have a fire rating of 1 making them flamable. Either is present in antifreeze.
 
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I learned something never thought antifreeze could burn but then 1475 f will burn or melt most anything lol, I can tell you that if you pull the blade out off Parks 50
is most definitly combustible ask me how I know a huge fireball in a wood shop is scary all the blades stay in it till they are cool now.
 
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I'm convinced that the coup de grace was doing 3 blades in a row. As I said, I used antifreeze quite a bit but always only one blade per day. Since then I've put on my big boy pants and got the right quenchants. Live and learn.

Rudy
 
some guys use baking soda in their grinding dip tank. This is supposed to minimize corrosion of the freshly ground blades.

ernie
 
A.W.Stovall said:
I learned something never thought antifreeze could burn but then 1475 f will burn or melt most anything lol, I can tell you that if you pull the blade out off Parks 50
is most definitly combustible ask me how I know a huge fireball in a wood shop is scary all the blades stay in it till they are cool now.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you got to use your P-50 Anthony, but sorry to hear about the mushroom cloud.
 
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