52100 & w2 heat treat

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Kevin,
The main reason I didn't know was because I have never heard you mention anything about your knives, or even seen one posted...

That may be the downside to my philosophy. I very rarely post my own work because for me helping others with information and educating is totally separate from promoting my knives. I think it is fine if somebody has, or pays for, their own separate space for marketing but I see these forums as a place to share information for the good of our craft and I can't bring myself to use them for marketing my blades. I have seen many self styled gurus that are very eager to offer bits of helpful information that always includes a plug for their book or DVD that will tell you the rest, to each his own, but I find that very in genuine or tacky at best and it is not my style. Also when one is claiming to provide unbiased data having a monetary interest sort of undermines the credibility of the information. One excellent example of this are cryo studies, to date I have only seen a couple that were not conducted by people selling cryo services, and interestingly enough in these rare examples the numbers are much more reasonable and believable. But because of my approach I often get antagonists that believe I am just an armchair quarterback, until they eventually see something like my website and rethink that assessment. :3:

 

[McClellan Made Blades]

That may be the downside to my philosophy. I very rarely post my own work because for me helping others with information and educating is totally separate from promoting my knives. I think it is fine if somebody has, or pays for, their own separate space for marketing but I see these forums as a place to share information for the good of our craft and I can't bring myself to use them for marketing my blades. I have seen many self styled gurus that are very eager to offer bits of helpful information that always includes a plug for their book or DVD that will tell you the rest, to each his own, but I find that very in genuine or tacky at best and it is not my style. Also when one is claiming to provide unbiased data having a monetary interest sort of undermines the credibility of the information. One excellent example of this are cryo studies, to date I have only seen a couple that were not conducted by people selling cryo services, and interestingly enough in these rare examples the numbers are much more reasonable and believable. But because of my approach I often get antagonists that believe I am just an armchair quarterback, until they eventually see something like my website and rethink that assessment. :3:

Kevin,
I totally understand and respect your philosophy, BUT, (notice the BIG But!) your knives are so exquisite that I think it would definitely open up more opportunities to share your vast knowledge!

Your approach to Damascus is genius, while I'm sure it could be hotly debated by some, your ideas have a huge advantage to the normal methods. And I'm sure others, you know, with experience with Damascus, could support their position as well. While at the same time the resulting discussion would open up so many doors for those of us getting started.

I too, see these forums, especially KD, as a place of learning, BUT, sharing your work isn't so much about promoting it as it is simply sharing it. Like I said, I understand your position and philosophy, I just don't agree with it. Just think, if Bill Moran didn't let as many folks see his work, to allow the topics and discussions arise from folks seeing his work, which ultimately led him to sharing his RE-discovery of Damascus, where would we be now? I'm not saying you should be putting your work up for sale, I'm quite sure you have a dedicated following and really don't need the forum to sell knives, but sharing the blades you make will bring up more topics of discussion, which will increase all of our learning.

I know you don't want it to look like your helping folks with other motivations there. At this stage in the game, I don't think you really have to worry about that. Answer this question seriously, without being modest, here goes, "How many knife makers NEW and OLD, have YOU helped?" I wouldn't start with hundred, thousands would be closer, with the limited number of knife makers and your longevity in the business, I believe your impact on the business would be difficult to measure. I can't count how many times I've been in a discussion with other knife makers and they will say something to the effect of,"Kevin Cashen says....", you really can't measure how many people you have helped, with all the articles, web sites and forum posts you have done, I don't think you have to worry about it looking like your trying to profit from sharing. I still see your point, and totally respect it, all I'm really asking is for a little show and tell, and truthfully who would really care if you sold a knife because someone discovered your work because of your writing? Something like a WIP would be awesome! I'll never forget the 1st WIP I followed, didn't even know what WIP stood for, was Erin Burke, he started making around the same time I did, maybe a little before, and he did one on his 3rd knife! I was blown away, I even wrote him and said he "must have a brass pair to post a WIP with such limited knowledge", he wrote me back and stated that his WIP wasn't as much meant to show anyone how to make anything it was more to show other more experienced makers how he made a knife and to get feedback and different ways to do the same thing or to uncover mistakes in his process, I thought it was brilliant!!!

I think I've made my point, and I'll say it again, I respect your position, and being big boys we can agree to disagree, I think seeing is believing, and those that may have any doubts about your knowledge (if there are any) can see that you do know what your talking about!!! I'll add a GREAT BIG THANK YOU!!! For all you have helped ME!!! While you can talk over my head, it made me want to understand the processes better, and made me dig a little more, read and re-read everything I could get my hands on.

Just consider it, possibly a blog? Just my 2 cents, Thanks again for everything! Rex

 

[McClellan Made Blades]

Kevin,
I went to Aldo's site and found that his W-2 has .916 points of carbon, after more research and reading some more of what Don Hanson had to say about it and a fella by the name of Howard Clark, (I don't know who he is, but he sounded pretty knowledgeable on the subject of W-2 & Don Hanson agreed with him), and their opinions were in line with what you said about time/temps, they just didn't say why! So my plan is to HT my next W-2 blade at 1425f, with a soak time of 5 minutes, quench in Maxim's DT-48 quench oil, then straight into the oven for a tempering cycle. I'm thinking of 1 or maybe 2 cycles of 350f to 400f degrees. I'll be checking back after I get the HT done, I'm not sure if I'll have it ready for HT today, but I'm going to to try! Thanks Bud! Rex

 

[Darrin Sanders]

Howard Clark is a maker of high end swords. Although I'm sure he works with other steels, he mostly uses L-6 & 1086M. All 3 of the makers mentioned know their stuff. I'm anxious to see the results of your next blade. Keep us informed and maybe post a pic or 2 if possible. Cheers,

Darrin

 

[Doug Lester]

Howard Clark has also done a lot of work with metallurgy that has included the microscopic structure of the steel. I believe that he also worked with John Verhoeven in the writing of Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist as well as developing a process to make a blade with a martensitic edge and a bainetic body.

Doug

 

[McClellan Made Blades]

Howard Clark has also done a lot of work with metallurgy that has included the microscopic structure of the steel. I believe that he also worked with John Verhoeven in the writing of Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist as well as developing a process to make a blade with a martensitic edge and a bainetic body.

Doug

Well Dang diggidy!!! Between all these experts I'm referencing my blade should be harder than Superman's Knee caps!!! I had no idea who this fella was but everything I read was in -line with everything Kevin had said, except they didn't state why as Kevin did, Aldo's W-2 is .916 carbon, which is pushing closer to the 1% range of carbon, so it should need a longer soak time at a lower temp, if I have that understood correctly.

I've been working on this blade off and on all day, with today being a scorcher, I'm not quite sure what the temp is outside, but I'd say the heat index is around a 110, hey I might be able to heat treat this blade in the sunshine, just give it a lot of extra soak time! It's so hot out I've caught myself getting dizzy a couple of times, and I'm downing the water. Even had a Powerade to help replenish some electrolytes. I still have to take a lot of breaks, this heat is relentless, but this blade is looking pretty nice, and I'm getting more and more excited about it. The first knife I've made since March! So I'm jonesing to make one and the heat won't stop me, yeah it'll slow me down considerably, but I'll keep going back, get a little more done, about 45 minutes to an hour and come cool off for about an hour and drink all I can. Once I get it done I'll be sure to post the results, Thanks Guys, Rex

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Rex, you really are too kind, and I appreciate it very much, although I must warn you that you are not endearing yourself to a certain segment of the knifemaking scene with your support of my contributions.

...Like I said, I understand your position and philosophy, I just don't agree with it...
...I think I've made my point, and I'll say it again, I respect your position, and being big boys we can agree to disagree...

Hmmm, somebody strongly disagreeing with me because they think my knives need more air time… I have a really hard time getting upset over that.:3:

...Something like a WIP would be awesome! ...

Heh, heh, heh, so much of what you are feeling deprived of from me is just a matter of digging back a little more in time. I have been at this a while, and I actually did WIPs before they were popular, or even called WIP’s for that matter. It may be safe to say I was one of the pioneers in the concept. You will probably enjoy this one very much:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?13809-Confessions-of-a-bladesmith-secrets-revealed!-(Finished-Pictures-added)

It is quite exhaustive and a good many of the guys making pattern welded swords these days got their start from it.

…Just consider it, possibly a blog? Just my 2 cents, Thanks again for everything! Rex

:les:Well… let me see what I can do. Actually keep in touch since I am working on something very much like that, although I detest the word “blog” and would rather call it an online journal similar to a magazine format. Those who have known me for a while will also tell you that I may be lynched eventually if I don’t just finish the darned book I have been working on (i.e. dragging my feet on) for years. Rest assured I will complete it eventually and then perhaps my usefulness on these forums will be negligible.

 

[Knifemaker.ca]

Kevin,
I went to Aldo's site and found that his W-2 has .916 points of carbon, after more research and reading some more of what Don Hanson had to say about it and a fella by the name of Howard Clark, (I don't know who he is, but he sounded pretty knowledgeable on the subject of W-2 & Don Hanson agreed with him), and their opinions were in line with what you said about time/temps, they just didn't say why! So my plan is to HT my next W-2 blade at 1425f, with a soak time of 5 minutes, quench in Maxim's DT-48 quench oil, then straight into the oven for a tempering cycle. I'm thinking of 1 or maybe 2 cycles of 350f to 400f degrees. I'll be checking back after I get the HT done, I'm not sure if I'll have it ready for HT today, but I'm going to to try! Thanks Bud! Rex

Forgive me but I think I missed a step or a link somewhere. Kevin had suggested under 1500 if .8 or more and 1475 or less if approaching .1 carbon. You're suggesting above, a soak of only 1425. That's a big jump. What did I miss - and can anyone answer the "why" part of the question.

Watching with great interest. Thanks.

Rob!

 

[Darrin Sanders]

It didn't dawn on me when I read it, but 1425 does seem a bit low to me too.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

I saw it as well, but intentionally did not touch it with a 10’ pole since it appears to be sourced from other well known makers. Hard learned experience has showed me that now is the time to rest my case on the information that I have presented before somebody comes along and reads this thread and reports it back to guys who I have to work with in this business that Cashen said they are wrong, and also said they are dirty @$%$#. Not that I don’t trust the folks currently involved in this thread, but eventually it will be read by hundreds more and all I need is one person who feels I contradicted one of their knife-info heros and I will get grief.

 

[Knifemaker.ca]

It's not contradiction in knifemaking - it's contribution. What I'm reading into this (hopefully what I should be reading into it) is that makers have had good results austenizing W2 anywhere from about 1425F to 1500F. That isn't particularly surprising given the wide range of alloys referred to as W2 and the different treatments they get before final HT. It will probably lead me to start somewhere in the middle and look for any good reason to try changes.

Everyone's input is welcome. That's one of the things I'm coming to like about this forum.

Rob!

 

[McClellan Made Blades]

Oh Boy, seems my superduper typing skills have struck again! I totally missed that, sorry guys, I did mean 1475, please forgive the error.

I didn't get nearly as much done on that blade yesterday as I had hoped to do, but it is almost ready for the grinds, this stuff is hard to clean up from forging! May not be so much the steel as it is me, it's been so long since I made a knife. Ok, the correct plan is 1475 with a 5 minute soak, then temp at 400 for 1 hour, I want to shoot for a RC of 58-59, really 58 would be perfect as this is a larger blade, not huge, but could be used as a chopper and I don't want any issues with edge roll, of course I don't want any issues with chipping either, so I need to nail the HT. Maybe 2 temp cycles for an hour each at say 375? Which would be best? Sorry for the typo, I was rushing, and I'll leave any references from my own digging off, from now on.

Kev, if I ever say something stupid or anything I shouldn't say, which I can do intentional AND/OR otherwise, please PM me a "smack upside the head!" Thanks ALL, Rex

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

It's not contradiction in knifemaking - it's contribution. What I'm reading into this (hopefully what I should be reading into it) is that makers have had good results austenizing W2 anywhere from about 1425F to 1500F. That isn't particularly surprising given the wide range of alloys referred to as W2 and the different treatments they get before final HT. It will probably lead me to start somewhere in the middle and look for any good reason to try changes.

Everyone's input is welcome. That's one of the things I'm coming to like about this forum.

Rob!

But trust me that "contributions" can bring you unpleasant reactions if the wrong people don't hear what they want to in your "contributions". The real thing to take from the information (since it is not just a typo by Rex, as I have seen suggested temps that low) is that you need to understand the methods and goals of who is giving the advice.

I have stressed before the importance of being careful when mixing advice from water quenchers and oil quenchers. Water quenchers often intentially lowball the austenitizing temps to avoid that horrible "ping" sound, while oil quenchers will often use increasingly higher temps depending on the speed of their oil. So in the case of gathering heat treating information from different sources it could be true that oil and water do not mix.

 

[badgerknives]

okay, so im thinking of 5 minutes soak at nonmagnetic then quenched in 150 degree water. then straight to the oven at 425. sound good?

 

[Doug Lester]

I would try to keep the steel from going over 1500 degrees during the soak to keep grain growth down. I you're talking about W2, I would probably try 400 degrees first. If you test the blade and feel that it has left the blade a little hard you can always go back and retemper at 425. If you temper at 425 and the edge seems a little soft for your purposes then you will have to go back and reharden the blade then retemper. If you're talking about 52100, you're a braver man than I am but it's been done.

Doug

 

[badgerknives]

w2, thanks ill try that

 

[McClellan Made Blades]

"(since it is not just a typo by Rex, as I have seen suggested temps that low)"


Kevin,
What I suspect happened, is that I was thinking 1475 and had just read 1425, and it came out the way I had read it, I totally intended 1475, but as per your instructions you said and I quote,

"If it is above .8% you really must keep your hardening temp below 1500F. and if it approaches 1% you need to stay at 1475F or below."

So at .916 carbon, is this approaching 1% as I would assume it is since it's closer to 1% than .8%, and wouldn't 1425 be below 1475? The main reason I come to KD is for the benefit of learning all I can, I try my best to be the nicest person I can be, mostly because I'm grateful for all of the assistnce that I do get when I venture into unknown territory, and also because bringing up the subjects I tend to bring up, there seems to always be something someone else is wanting to know.

But when I get offended by ANYONE implied or otherwise, it puts a huge damper on my enthausiasm. Kevin, you can think what you want about me, but DO NOT CALL ME A LIAR. You really don't know me, what you said about me typing that was uncalled for, simply because you'd seen those numbers somewhere else, after going back and re-reading you instructions it looks to me like they are close to what you said, since your instructions weren't very specific, as approaching 1% carbon keep the temp at 1475 or below, 1425 IS below! A typo is an unintended key hit, I don't know if it applys to thinking one thing and typing something else. Either way it is out of line to call me a liar, no appologies are needed. I just couldn't NOT respond to that little quip, I can get by this, and let it go, I had to get this off my chest, as it was bothering me in a bad way. In a business where your word and your character are so important, things like this can't be let go with out being corrected. Now I can get by this, and we can go back to learning, I have stated may times how much I appreciate you and all you do, even gushing at times, that still stands, now lets let it go and get back to the fun stuff, REX

 

[rob45]

Easy now, Rex.

The communication is getting mixed up!
Perhaps Kevin was suggesting "it's not only a typo by Rex".
Meaning that not only was there a typo by you, but also the fact that he has seen it suggested elsewhere by others where it wasn't a typo.

A simple case of things being taken out of context.

Take care, buddy.
Rob

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

As I get ready to post this I see that Rob has already nailed it in one sentence better than my typical page and a half verbosity.

Rex, words cannot express my horror and the awful "slug in the gut" feeling I got from reading your post. I was devastated, shocked and utterly confused until I carefully re-read my post and saw my totally inept wording.

Rex you have been absolutely wonderful to me, and the person to make me feel the most welcome with your kind posts, I would NEVER do what you now mistakenly think I have done! I am truly sick from this misunderstanding. That you could think I would do such a thing tells me I have fallen far short of properly establishing my appreciation of you, or casting myself in the best light.

This was my fault by poor typing, I knew that you truly had mistyped and what I was saying was that your innocent typo in this case was not the only place I have seen such numbers. Although I entirely understand and believe you mistyped, I have seen many instances in advice where the numbers were intentionally written. My wording did not convey this message, and that is entirely my fault. Rereading my miserable choice of words allows me to see exactly where you misread my true intentions.

Please know that I would never call a gentleman such as yourself a liar, but on the occasion that I have felt that were the case, with other much less quality individuals, there would be no need for doubt as I would not suggest, or allude, I would say it, and I have never had such in occasion yet in my career.

This is most devastating since it comes on the heals of a decision I made some weeks ago about my participation on many internet forums. Every post I made in this thread was with great reservation as it was a violation of that resolution. The last thread I was involved in here resulted in perplexing levels of hostility that went beyond the public forum thread and told me that this medium is no longer an effective vehicle in helping my craft in a friendly and positive manner. But I was lured back to help in this thread only to have my ineffective communication style continue to create problems, but this time I even managed to offend one of my supporters.

Again and again I find hostility and conflict in my participation in these forums, leaving me to recognize but one common factor- myself. The fact that my poor communication skills will most often leave others assuming the worst from what I have said, tells me that I have already established a negative image by my behavior. Those who interact with me in person will tell you that is just not the person I really am. I am actually very mild mannered and despise conflict due to the above average stress it afflicts me with, and yet it seems unavoidable in these venues. To add to this vicious cycle, the constant stress of having to deal with forum hostility has made many of my posts, on forums across the net, appear to be written by a much angrier person than I truly am. This is not good for me, this is not good for the craft.

It is these personal shortcomings in effective communication that gave me long pause and much hesitation in accepting my role here when Tracy so graciously invited my participation, and now the inevitable has come to pass. Tracy still supports me and encourages my input but I do not support what that input is doing to his forum.

I am not big on swan songs so I had already made this decision weeks ago, but had not announced anything, which left the door open for me to break my own resolution and do it yet again. So this kick in the pants is actually what I needed. There are a couple of commitments to specific forums that I must live up to, so perhaps I will see some of you good folks there. The ABS forum and other parts of the ABS website will be getting much more of my attention now due to my new duties in that organization, so I look forward to working with members of that group in what I hope will be a more positive manner guided by the strict professional nature of that venue.

Lastly, Rex. No silly talk of you becoming my friend… you already are in every sense of the word. Your kindness and support of my contributions have inspired me and leave me with a sadness that I have offended you that you may not know. You have my most sincere and utter apologies for my clumsy words. Please allow me the honor of making this up to you by helping you in any way I can in the future. Drop me an e-mail (kevin@cashenblades.com) and I will be sure to let you know about any new informational projects I am working on, or just feel free to call on me directly in any way that I can help.

I wish the best to all I have had the pleasure in working with in sorting out these confusing things we do with steel. Take care and keep in touch, as I will still be out there and looking forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely
Kevin R. Cashen

 

[franklin]

Kevin you will sorely be missed and i think I'm not the only one that will say that, i understand what your saying Ive gone way back and have read your posts from years ago and understand what your saying. hope one day you'll change your mind like today PLEASE. well had to give it a try,thanks for all the help you have given me personally. your friend Larry