Stabilizing

C Craft

C Craft

Well-Known Member
Who/what is the place to send wood to be stabilized. I found a site that I feel has decent prices on there wood. http://www.bellforestproducts.com/bark-pocket-maple/ Even some of the more exotic woods seemed like a decent price!!
However since the site says nothing about the wood being stabilized I wonder if it is worth it! I like there set-up you punch the name of a particular type wood. They throw up a pic, a description and various sizes!!

Anyone got any thoughts here!!
 
What is the COST of something like that? Do they charge by the pound? I tried some home stabilization and well,...……… lets say without great results!

John I am seeing what you spoke as it all adds up! Mr. Doyle I would appreciate you weighing in on this subject!!

See here on this site, http://www.bellforestproducts.com/bark-pocket-maple/ you can buy say any of the following!

Black & White Ebony 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 6" No $13.00 out

After looking at the price I have concerns. So here is my first concern! It states that the piece is not dried and has not been stabilized. So it cost me $13.00 to BUY. shipping to get it here. I then have to wait to get it dry and then ship it out to be stabilized and shipping back to me. And this bargain is not looking like a bargain!!!
 
I've got wood from them in the past, and it's "ok" wood. If they show "hand picked" and it's really nice wood, the price will reflect it. I'd only purchase hard dense woods that didn't need stabilizing...... unless I planned to stabilize it myself. By choosing the proper wood to stabilize (open porous wood, spalted, etc) I've had good luck. Once the block is stabilized, it will sink in water showing it's full of resin.

How and what process did you use that wasn't very good? I use a vacuum pump

edit: John, you are correct some stabilized woods will float, but I've never found a stabilized wood that would float "high" in the water. Usually when a stabilized wood does float, it's floats almost even with the water, or perhaps with just a tad sticking above water.
 
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If you're going to send wood out for stabilizing, k&g is the place to send it.

Some woods can't/shouldn't be stabilized such as any that are naturally oily and dense.....like ebony and all the rosewood family, which includes Blackwood, Ironwood and cocobolo.

Then there are many woods that CAN be stabilized but certainly don't need to be, despite what so many people say. Just a few would include maple, walnut, amboyna. There are many others.

And there are a couple woods that probably really should be stabilized to make them suitable for knife handles. Buckeye burl and anything heavily spalted cone to mind.

Stabilizing is charged by the pound AFTER stabilizing when the wood is heaviest. Less than 5 lbs. Is $14 per pound. 5-10 lbs. Is $12 per pound. More than 10 lbs. Is $10 per pound.

Yeah.....it adds up.
 
Ken and John thank you for weighing in on this!!

J. Doyle said:
Then there are many woods that CAN be stabilized but certainly don't need to be, despite what so many people say. Just a few would include maple, walnut, amboyna. There are many others.
Click to expand...

All this prompts me to ask John is there a list somewhere of woods that do not need to be stabilized? I really would like to know which ones are safe without stabilization!!


In all actuality I worry about (steel growing and shrinking)here in the heat and high humidity here it Florida!! OK that was meant to be funny.

However my cabinet work and furniture building have taught me woods of two different kinds do not come and go at the same rate.
I had a big farm table I built for a couple, and they wanted two different woods in the top for color contrast, (and at present my mind is not letting remember what the two woods were).

It like to have drove me crazy. I had it sanded down and everything was nice and smooth. The humidity was very high so I was waiting for a less humid day to seal the wood. I came by the table and run my hand over the wood and the one wood had swelled. Not enough to see with the eye but I could feel the difference. So I sanded the top again.

I came out the next day and it was less humid this morning. So I am getting ready to seal and as I ran my hand across the top, the other wood was standing proud/higher of the wood that had felt proud/higher the day before.
So I hurried and re-sanded the entire top, cleaned up the dust and sealed it while the humidity was down. Once sealed it stopped what was happening with the two woods reacting differently to the amount of humidity in the air!! I was very glad but I learned a lesson about humidity in Florida and what kind of effect it could have on unfinished wood!!


KenH said:
How and what process did you use that wasn't very good? I use a vacuum pump
Click to expand...

Ken, this is long story but, will try to make it as short as possible. I borrowed a vacuum pump from my son in law! Set up the small bottle of already mixed chemicals and pulled a vacuum on the Elk antler I had in a jar!! I did as advised pulled a vacuum and let it set for a hour or so. Dropped off the vacuum, and pulled again as instructed. This time I held the vacuum overnight. Figuring I am done and the pithy part of the Elk antler should be solid now, all I had left to do it heat it as instructed. I sealed the jar and slid it on the bench to heat tomorrow!!

My wife got very sick that night and after several trips to doctors and the hospital. In and out the jar on the bench got covered by a few other things that were thrown on it.
One day about two months or more had passed since I put the lid on the Elk horn intending to heat to complete the process. I am cleaning the bench off and find the jar and I realize the Elk antler has never been heated. I open the jar and find out that the antler and the chemicals in the jar are now one solid block!!

I have been told this can't happen however the guy from Turntex Woodworks told me it is possible!! Just the mixing of the two parts to the chemicals can cause it after time has passed! That is why when you buy in large quantities it comes in two separate containers! Also the act of pulling a vacuum can cause a certain amount of heat and coupled with the leaving it siting on my bench for a length of time could have caused it!

So basically it was my fault but, the results were not so very good!! :rolleyes:
 
I think the there are several things that must be realized/understood in relationship to "stabilizing"..... First, there is no standardized chemical/agent, nor exact methodology, therefore, results will, and do vary widely as to the level of success. Expectation is another..... stabilizing is not a "cure all".... it's original intent was to allow materials that would otherwise be too soft, punky, rotted, etc. to be viable for various uses. Even the best "stabilizing" agents/methods will not fill large voids, such as "pith" in that elk antler you mentioned.

Stabilizing almost always deals with natural materials, and therefore, will always have a large margin of error. It will not stop the movement that occurs with natural materials....but rather minimize it, to varying degrees, depending on the given material(s), it's point of origin, and the environment it ends up in.

There is no definitive list of woods that can or cannot be stabilized..... only some loose agreements between those who stabilize. It's generally accepted that those woods with high amounts or "oil" and/or "resins" are not good candidates.

Personally, I went through about 5 years of attempting to stabilize a wide variety woods in my own shop. I went from the lowest/cheapest level of equipment/agents, all the way through very high end equipment/agents. The experience caused me to form some very pointed opinions of home stabilizing, keeping in mind that I was using what I considered the "top" professional stabilizers products as a measuring stick......

Unless you are willing to spend THOUSANDS of dollars in building or purchasing equipment (NOT the cheesy/cheap junk you find being offered all over the net), and finding/obtaining the "right" stabilizing agent(s), your results will be mediocre at best. Using the commonly available stabilizing agents we see offered all over the net is nothing more then fooling yourself. ALL of these commonly available stabilizing agents have serious issues in one way or another. Keep in mind that I am using what I consider the "best" professional results, versus what I was able to achieve. If you believe you home stabilizing setup is working fine, then more power to you, but as a full time Bladesmith, making my living, and having my reputation riding on whatever I produce, it is far more economical, and effective, to out source any needed stabilizing to those specialize in it.

One more thing that I think should be addressed..... just because a given wood can be "stabilized" does not mean it should be. Experience has taught me that in some cases, stabilizing a wood that can be finished via other means, is often detrimental in one aspect of another...... one example is African Blackwood..... some (at the professional stabilizing level) say it cannot be stabilized, and others say it can...... however, after testing a number of pieces that had been stabilized, after a time, that particular wood tends to gain a "milky" appearance.

My position is that unless a wood is too soft, punky, ect. to be used for the intended purpose, then I I generally do not stabilize it, but rather choose to "finish" it via other means.

Finally, remember to temper your expectations...... when stabilizing woods/natural materials, there are so many variables that you can never hope to control them all. That goes for either "home shop" stabilizing, or "Professional".

I have also been ripped off by a couple of the "professional" outfits....... one in particular, I send in 75 blocks of Box Elder Burl, each with my name on them...... and got exactly 15 blocks back. I fought with that outfit for nearly a year, and never got it resolved. The interesting (maddening) part was that it was the very best blocks that didn't come back..... and I even caught them selling said blocks on their website.
 
J. Doyle said:
Ken, just fyi....I've got a few species back from k&g that will still float in water. Just wanted to point out that that's not always a surefire characteristic of stabilized wood.
Click to expand...

John, you are correct and I knew it, just forgot. I did an edit to add a bit more info to my post. Possible float - yes, but barely.
 
I like stabilized maple....I know it doesn't need it...but the ability to get a deep richly colored dye job from stabilizing is amazing. I love dyed maple! Specially curly maple....nothin' but colored ripples!

Ed's cautionary tale is alarming! Do you think if we sent in rough finished handles they would stabilize them? That would make them worthless to thieves AND cut the stabilizing cost...though at some point it may not be cost effective for the company to do it that way?
 
I have done home stabilizing....enough to know it will not be part of my business model. The clincher was going on K&Gs site and seeing that they are using up to 4000 lbs pressure...whereas, I was pulling full vacuum at 32lbs....also they are curing for 20 hrs...

From K&Gs site:
"K & G’s process is done under pressure up to 4000lbs. This ensures full penetration of your wood/material. After your wood/material has been impregnated it will be cured for at least 20 hours. At this point your wood/material can be worked on whether it is a knife handle or some other application."
 
OK, I had already kind of formed the idea that home stabilization could be exasperating, possibly expensive, and something I am not really sure I want to get into!
Scott, thanks for the links!

I already had it in mind soft woods and spalted woods wood benefit from stabilization.
So am I understanding correctly that most hard woods would be OK not stabilized???

If a piece is dyed, does that mean it should be stabilized as well to hold its color??

So let me take this in a slightly different direction. For those from my area, Fl., Al., Ga., La., Ms., and parts of Tx..

Do you consider you need to stabilize because of the humidity in this part of the world???

Or do you seal your handle and feel confident that it is not going to move too much???
 
We have processed thousands of blocks. Here is another perspective.

Stabilizing wood yourself saves money for a couple small groups of people and then with plenty of caveats.
1 Wood turners or mostly pro or semi-pro game call makers.
2 Guys that will use several dozen to 100+ blocks in a year *might* save money.

Wood turners, especially game call makers drive most of this market. It's more or less expected that a custom game call is stabilized unless it is cocobolo or rosewood - which doesn't take stabilizing.

Knife guys that want total authorship (what ever that means) and enjoy the technical and artistic side of of the process probably would enjoy it. For most knife guys it doesn't save money. The cost to set up and then to learn the process wipes out most potential savings.

I know three or four stabilizers fairly well and have some knowledge of a few more. Each uses their own chemicals and process. Some stabilized wood comes back very heavy, some is very light and you wonder if it was stabilized at all. Most of this depends on the wood being processed but some of this also is chemical/process dependent.

Expect to spend at least $450 to get a cheap pump, vacuum pot and a gallon of juice. The dyes will be additional.

You don't need a 4,000lb pressure pot to stabilize. K&G does volume processing and time is money so they go big. A 20 hour cure isn't needed. A couple hours at around 200F will cure just fine. Most all of this stuff catalyzes around 185F. Simply adding more soak time under vacuum will get as much penetration as cycling pressure/vacuum. It just takes longer. This is easy to prove with colored juice. We soak under vacuum for 2 to 3 weeks at a time depending on how hard the wood is. Light punky wood can be treated in a few hours.

The upside to doing it yourself is you can create some stunning pieces with multiple dyes. Multiple dyes takes a lot of time and effort.

I have seen people have allergic reactions to even the non-tox stuff. Wear gloves and wash off any chemical quickly.

Chemical sitting around can just "go off" and then you are stuck with a gallon or 3 of very expensive gel. We lose some every other month this way. It's aggravating but part of it.

Different techniques can yield different results and developing those skills are rewarding but you have to ask yourself, do you want to make knives or colored blocks of wood? I am in the trade and it's part of our business. If I was a maker knowing what I do about it, I would just buy it stabilized or send it off. Lately I use Mel at Wood Dynamics. Good guy to work with.

Maple burl is about 90% of stabilized wood for a reason. It takes the dye well and you can make some absolutely cool blocks.
Many woods don't need stabilizing or it won't stabilize. These are oily woods like ironwood, rosewood.

Stabilized wood nearly always benefits from a applying a final finish oil. I use Danish Oil which is mostly Tung oil with evaporants to help it cure.

If you drop some stabilized wood into water, it will likely soak up the water. If you then set that block on a dry surface, you will see the water leak back out. Stabilizing does not waterproof wood. It reduces but does not eliminate movement from humidity changes.
 
C Craft said:
So let me take this in a slightly different direction. For those from my area, Fl., Al., Ga., La., Ms., and parts of Tx.. I am from north carolina and it is as humid here as mom's house in georgia.
Do you consider you need to stabilize because of the humidity in this part of the world???
no, don't want a plastic(pardon me, Resin) handle
Or do you seal your handle and feel confident that it is not going to move too much???
Click to expand...
is seal and have not seen movement in handles I sealed 5 years ago. use an oil finish, here is link to discussion of what they are and reviews of 100 or so different ones http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com...-and-abrasives/penetrative/oil-finishes-pt-1/ or use varnish/polyurethane. i use water based Varathane for floors, looks good, wears well, 90 minutes between coats, No Odor, does not color or darken wood. i also like Deftane, but hate the 18 hours between coats.
 
I am confirming some aspect of stabilization I already suspected, some I already knew, and learning some new things! So now I am going to put all this knowledge into my thinking cap and digest all of it!!

Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread!! It has been a learning experience!!
 
Well Cliff, I live about 300 miles or so south of you, as the crow fly's, I think your getting about the same weather as me...rain on and off every day for the last two weeks, the other morning the weather guy said the humidity was above 90% and the feels like temp. was 90.........THAT was at 6:00 in the morning, it wasn't even light out yet :confused:.so that tends to wreck havoc on wood, not right then, putting it on the knife, but later when that humidity changes, like in the winter here. I keep my finished knives in a big box with dehumidifiers and on some regular knives the tang and pins go proud in just a couple days. once I pull them out they'll go back after a few days....for the most part.

Probably 9 out of 10 knives I make have stabilized wood, the rest are dense woods, ironwood and other's.
I'll probably never bother stabilizing wood myself, after everything I've read over the years, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that's one aspect of knife work I'll leave to others.

I've tried a few different folks but always end up with K&G.
Stabilized wood is pricy whether you buy it like that or send them wood but the peace of mind is far worth it in the end.
 
Tracy's input is spot on, and very practical.

There are a ton of choices/reasons for each individual to consider when it comes to stabilized materials.

Here's something else to consider..... if you're build knives that you expect to remain within the same geographical area they are produced in, the "movement" that occurs is a very minor consideration..... the handle material simply isn't going to "move" much, if any, if the knife spends it's life in the same geographical region it was produced in.

Personally, I think the concern of handle material "moving" is more concerning when a knife is produced in a given geographical region, then shipped to another.... I'll use myself as an example....say I produce a knife with stag here in Montana, where the climate is usually very dry (right now the humidity outside is 9%), and I send it off to a client in Florida..where the humidity is vastly higher...... there's no question that stag will "swell" after only a few days in Florida, and will continue to do so for a relatively long time. If I were in Florida, produced the same knife, and shipped it to Montana, I could expect that stag/handle material to shrink, likely exposing the tang.

The point? Understanding the differences/changes that MIGHT occur from region to region should be a consideration as to whether or not stabilizing is "necessary"....... as I said prior, you're not going to stop the "movement" with stabilizing......but you can mitigate/minimize it to the best degree you can.
 
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