Individual carbide hardness, as quenched, tempered.

Fred Rowe

Well-Known Member
When we talk about how hard a blade is, what is it we're saying relative to each individual carbide type? If the steel being used is a very basic carbon steel, without any of the other carbides; chromium, tungsten, vanadium or molybdenum I think I understand. But when any of the others are added to the steel I'm not so sure. When 62 HRC is the given hardness of a blade is this a composite average of all the carbides in the steel?
Take vanadium carbide; it being the hardest of the five; what happens to its measure of hardness when its quenched and then tempered? Whats taking place? As the steel is tempered at different degree settings, what effect is it having on how hard the vanadium carbide is. Does the hardness of the carbide structure itself stay the same or does it change with the different time at temperature settings?
Vanadium is a popular alloying agent in many of today's super steels and I would really like to know more about why they are super.

I would appreciate any information on this, Fred
 
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Fred, I know it seems quite small but on the scale of carbides the HRC test dimple is huge, too big to measure the individual carbides. What the Rockwell test measures is the overall matrix of the steel. This topic touches well on the analogy I use often in my classes of a doughy ball of clay filled with small chunks of glass. If you skate a file over the ball of clay the tops of the chunks of glass will give you the impression that the entire ball is as hard as glass. If you take the handle off the file and plunge the tang into the ball, the glass chunks will just push aside and you will see that the ball is as soft as clay. This is the difference between Rockwell tests and skating a file. Hardness is actually not a property of steel as much is it is a way of us conceptualizing or quantifying other real properties. Scratch tests like the Mohs scale and files measure the property of abrasion resistance; Rockwell measures the property of strength.

So let’s start out with1080 steel. At room temperature it is pearlitic, a phase consisting of alternating bands (lamellae) of ferrite (soft iron) and cementite (very hard iron carbide). A Rockwell test will simply bury the needle into the ferrite, pushing the cementite aside as it goes. The reading will probably be HRC 32 or less. The matrix itself is not strong because the carbon is trapped in the carbide and not reinforcing the iron. But if we heat the steel up and dissolve the carbide to mix its carbon into the ferrite, and then quench it, the overall matrix will then resist the penetrator to give us a reading of 65 HRC.

Now let’s do some magic forging techniques that has been fantasized about over the years and add carbon to our 1080 until it is 1095. Pretty much all the same behavior will apply until we quench it, then we will get the same HRC readings there as well, but there will be all these extra iron carbides that are even finer than the pearlite lamellae and push aside all the easier. They contribute even less to the overall Rockwell reading, but push the abrasion resistance via scratch hardness much higher.

Adding chrome, tungsten or vanadium to the mix will increase the number of carbides formed because these elements like the carbon even more than iron does. So you must be careful not to put so many in that they use up all the free carbon and limit your maximum Rockwell hardness by robbing the matrix of carbon. These carbides will be more complex and much harder so even more abrasion resistant, but they still are too small to have an effect on the HRC value.

If you take your piece of steel, and put it under a Vickers or Knoop type micro-hardness tester, which is more like a microscope with a microscopic penetrator built in, your Rockwell dimple will look like Meteor Crater in Arizona. But if you polished a section next to it to reveal carbides and the carbides were huge, you may be able to drop the micro-hardness penetrator on one and get a reading of equivalent to 70, 80 or even 90 HRC, even though the steel itself is giving an overall Rockwell reading of only 65.

While tempering decreases the HRC reading of the steel by taking carbon out of the matrix, it actually increase the carbide numbers as it uses the freed carbon to make ultrafine tempering carbides, which you would never measure the hardness of, even with a micro-hardness tester, because they are so fine to see with anything short of an electron microscope.

So in the end you have the two concepts of hardness discussed here- scratch hardness, or abrasion resistance, and penetrative hardness or overall strength. Carbon that is free to reinforce the steel matrix increases overall strength as read by the Rockwell tester, while carbon locked in the form of carbide which contributes little to overall strength, and thus is not measured by the Rockwell test, but increases abrasion resistance, so it will eat up files, mills and even challenge abrasives (ask anybody who has hand polished Cru-forgeV how pleasant it was).
 
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I have a much better picture of the relationship between the steels structure, alloy makeup and the resulting hardness and abrasion resistance.

I needed to think "small" and make my focus much more narrow. I wish I could have been your student when I was coming along.

I appreciate you taking the time to help me understand, Fred
 
Given some of the very high amounts of carbides in some modern steels, say S110V, would it be fair to say there is a sort of corner that gets turned, and the sheer volume of carbide is enough to influence the hardness test? I'm picturing steels with 25 volume percent carbide or more, without actually knowing how much S110V has. Maybe that turning point is there, but steel doesn't or (at this point) can't have that much. Maybe stellite or something would be a better example.
 
I am in the process of making a hunter out of S110V and it just laughs at the belts from 220 grit on up!

Brutal stuff to finish even on the machine.

Thanks to Fred for asking and Kevin for informing us.
 
I do believe that if Kevin Cashen wrote a book on steel composition and heat treating as pertains to knife making I would buy one (and read it!) and probably a lot of other folks would too. None of his writing is what I'd call "lite" reading but it is very understandable. I think it is a fairly rare gift when a highly knowledgeable technical person can pull the branch low enough for us less scientific guys to sample the fruit....

Thanks Kevin...much appreciated. (The glass particles in clay....an A-HAH moment. I'm learning a lot here as imagery works better for me than just data)

If you ever get the notion e-book or PDF would be just fine.:3:
 
Kevin does have a way of putting things so that it's easier to understand but steel metallurgy is something that you've go to run around in your mind a few times to get it straight.

Doug
 
I do believe that if Kevin Cashen wrote a book on steel composition and heat treating as pertains to knife making I would buy one (and read it!) and probably a lot of other folks would too. None of his writing is what I'd call "lite" reading but it is very understandable. I think it is a fairly rare gift when a highly knowledgeable technical person can pull the branch low enough for us less scientific guys to sample the fruit....

Thanks Kevin...much appreciated. (The glass particles in clay....an A-HAH moment. I'm learning a lot here as imagery works better for me than just data)

If you ever get the notion e-book or PDF would be just fine.:3:

I have been working on a book for over ten years now, by far the hardest thing I have ever tried to do is force myself to sit down and work on the next chapter. If anybody out there has any tips on writers block, or how to get motivated at writing when life has dozens of other things for you to do, I would appreciate any of them as I am desperate at this point; as is my wife, and all the others who tell me they have been waiting for that book.
 
That old adage about how to eat an elephant.....one bite at a time. I think everyone who enjoys writing has a bunch of angst about it. Especially if they're not just writing about their ponderments of the day, (I just made up ponderments...don't know if it's a real word but it should be) but actually trying to coney some form of truth/knowledge.

Here's a couple ideas.....you may have already tried them.

Collect everything you have written on every forum that is either on topic or philosophical enough to relate to your topic. Organize them and lift anything that seems good and add to your book. No need to reinvent the wheel. Possibly there is almost an entire book online if you collected your work and collated it. It's good work. It's yours. It's already been field tested.

You might be a helper more than a writer. Meaning, you might need the stimulus of quizzical people to motivate you to write. So perhaps rather than sitting down to do the next chapter. Sit down and answer 5 questions that pertain to the topic of the chapter. You may even want to share the chapter headings with us so that we can bombard you with our collective ignorance in the form of questions relating to the chapter topic. It's much easier to know how basic to go when the questions reveal the general level of knowledge of your audience.

Resist the temptation to write things that will gain the respect of your peers. There are probably tons of white papers written by you and your peers that most of us couldn't understand. If my perception is correct you are a natural teacher. The unlearned will gain much more from your work than the industry folk that are already somewhat proficient in your field. If you also have insights that are geared to the scientific guys in your industry, write two books. Might be easier than trying to get it all in one.

Do you have a place to work where there are no distractions? Creativity is a real bugger for not playing second fiddle to anything. When I am drawing or designing and get interrupted I often set things down and go do something else for a while. having family members that understand that even a, "Honey....would you like some iced tea...?" can wreck a train of thought is valuable. Do not discuss this with them after they have just derailed you. My family knows that when I am at the clipboard or the CAD program to leave me alone.

Do you set aside time? Do you have the freedom to sit there without a single thing happening? If there is an internal slave-driver that whispers mean things to you when no text is forthcoming you have to kill it. Especially if you have allowed it to grow. One way to stick a knife in that monster is to sit and specifically not write a word. Just sit and think about all the reasons you love metallurgy. How your personality is uniquely suited to what you do. Some of the interesting people your profession has allowed you to work with. Etc. But no writing till you just can't stand it.

Don't talk about your book to too many people. I am totally extrapolating from design projects on this one....you decide if it applies. The more people you involve in a creative project the less "you" it becomes and the more homogeneous it becomes. I have found that when more and more people try to "support" a project there is a weird dilution that happens and I can almost hear the fun making that "Fpppppppt...." sound as the creative balloon loses all it air. You may even want to tell all your well meaning friends and family that you have shelved the project and then quietly work on it. You may even want to put it away for three months and begin again a date that you set. Make it fun again.

You are well suited for this. you know it. Don't let the frustration of time spent already get in your head. Remember that you can edit anything. Don't try to write perfectly. just write.....and after a few days of letting it sit go back and edit a bit.

I hope a bit of this is helpful. I hate reading technical stuff....I have very much enjoyed reading some of your writings.

Be easy on yourself,
Ted
 
I have been working on a book for over ten years now, by far the hardest thing I have ever tried to do is force myself to sit down and work on the next chapter. If anybody out there has any tips on writers block, or how to get motivated at writing when life has dozens of other things for you to do, I would appreciate any of them as I am desperate at this point; as is my wife, and all the others who tell me they have been waiting for that book.

Kevin,
I also feel that you have a teaching gene or two in your DNA. My father was a University professor at CSUN. Being dyslexic, mine have trouble coming out in written words.

My Sister in Law is a Film/Tv writer and is working on a book or two. She attends a Writers group were they help each other with the challenges that you face. There are many these days and at the same time you can put your book up on Kindle and other sites to be sold direct and may never need to get it printed?

Check around at local local colleges for classes and groups for aspiring writers like yourself. I am not talking about the encounter group, save the world warm fuzzy crowd. Just folks that have a book or idea they want to bring to the market.
 
Kevin, just as Smallshop mentioned, your analogy of the glass particles in the clay matrix helped me to get a much better understanding of what is going on with carbides during heat treatment. Indeed, if you had a book for sale...I would buy a copy lickety split. Thanks for all your help.
 
Ted (Smallshop), and Laurence, many of your suggestions I have tried but you touched on a few that are pretty good ideas that I will keep in mind. Plenty of food for thought here, Thank you.
 
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