Ferry flip, accordion, loaf and slab, or?

[Travis Fry]

I should preface this by saying that I've made exactly 2 damascus billets ever under the close supervision by folks who knew what they were doing, and neither needed to have the pattern flipped so that it would show up. In other words, while I've done enough reading to be familiar with various methods for exposing a mosaic pattern and know how to go about them IN THEORY, I'm curious for some pro feedback on the pros and cons of the various methods. Why would you use one or the other?

My take so far from what I've read:

Ferry flip: Probably the best way to prevent distortion and material waste, but requires some MIG/TIG welding equipment and skill. Also requires lots of flux or (preferably) dry welding with joints sealed by application of the aforementioned welding equipment. Rewelding the billet after flipping seems to be where a lot of folks fail, so maybe this is harder than it looks. Either way, this is what I tend to lean toward, given my vast knowledge and experience .

Accordion: Maybe the easiest, since it avoids rewelding to reorient the pattern. Can distort patterns (though there may be ways to mitigate this?), and produces a lot of waste. Unless you make some "fossil" mosaic with the pieces. In any case, you end up with a smaller billet.

Loaf and slab: For sure eliminates distortion, but sawing off blade width pieces from a relatively large chunk of patterned steel seems like it'd take a heck of a lot of time. I think I'd probably use this for something like feather, where either of the above methods would probably eff up the pattern.

Am I missing anything? Can some folks who actually do these things chime in to further the discussion?

 

[Bruce Bump]

Travis this is a tall order indeed. I have experience with all these methods and have made some textbook and some disasters with each method. There are problems with the ferry flip if it a hard use knife although I've cut a 2x4 in half without fail. I really don't think it would pass the ABS cut N bend test. I think it would if it were very thick when welded and drawn out though but at the risk of the pattern stretching beyond the desired look.

You see I,m an ABS guy and supposed to make blades to at least pass their standards.

The loaf method is about the coolest ever method but most folks don't have the machinery or forge size needed for it although who says all billets have to be huge? Some of my best billets start big but end up small due to cutting the ends off everything. I think it's the most difficult to do. I,ve never bent one but should be fine especially if it gets drawn out some.

The accordian method is an age old method and in my opinion one of the best methods. I don't worry about waste and don't make fossil Damascus. I do keep the triangles as someday I,m going to maybe.
This blade is not only cool but will pass the ABS tests. It isn't without failure and heartbreak but done well it's a heck of a eye catching blade that will perform with the best of em.

This is "one mans opinion" and from my own experience in my own shop with the tools I have to work with. Our own Ed Caffrey teaches classes on this subject.

A method I like to use is a fine mosaic twist it and flatten it. Put a hollow grind on it and see what ya get!

 

[Travis Fry]

Bruce, a question based on my own lack of experience:

Why would the flip method produce a weaker blade? If the welds are good and everything is properly stress relieved, normalized, hardened, and tempered, how would the blade be any weaker (or stronger) than any other pattern welded blade?

Another: How do you mitigate pattern distortion with the accordion (un)fold? Do you just incorporate it into your designs?

Jim has suggested I come out and make mosaic and apply all 3 methods for the sake of experiment. It might be a tall order for a weekend, but I intend to take him up on it.

A method I like to use is a fine mosaic twist it and flatten it. Put a hollow grind on it and see what ya get!

This is my plan for a billet of Ws.

 

[Bruce Bump]

Bruce, a question based on my own lack of experience:

Why would the flip method produce a weaker blade? If the welds are good and everything is properly stress relieved, normalized, hardened, and tempered, how would the blade be any weaker (or stronger) than any other pattern welded blade?

I believe that there are some major things that need to happen in order to get a strong weld. There should be as much surface area as possible, there should be allot of compression and the final weld shouldnt run across the blade. Give it the bend test, The flip method doesn't meet any of them. It sure looks cool though.

Another: How do you mitigate pattern distortion with the accordion (un)fold? Do you just incorporate it into your designs?

The "stretch marks" as I call them for lack of a better name can look good or bad depending on the patterns complexity. I try to keep them small as possible by drawing and stacking more than usual or 4 way and 9 way until the initial pattern is very small and complex. When I cut the wedges out I try to make the cuts come together so there isn't very much rounding or clean up. Too much clean up on the inside cuts or the outside cut will result in bigger stretch marks. I careful to not draw the billet after it flat or else the pattern will stretch.


Jim has suggested I come out and make mosaic and apply all 3 methods for the sake of experiment. It might be a tall order for a weekend, but I intend to take him up on it.

Good luck young man. Send Jim my regards.



This is my plan for a billet of Ws.

This is one you'll like I think

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

Hey Travis,

Jim is here in Great Falls right now. He mentioned to me about this thread and you coming to his place to try it.....if you give me some advanced notice as to when you're gona go to Jim's, I'll try to make it up to his place!

I have to agree with Bruce on the points he made. But, as a side note, there's a time/place of each of the methods. Every Bladesmith will have their own reasons for using a given method, in a given situation. Personally, one reason I don't use the "Ferry Flip" very often is that I suck a math, and unless you're able to work out the pre-distorion as Tom Ferry is, you can wreck A LOT of steel. It's all about pluses and minuses for each Bladesmith. Trying each method will give you a better understanding of each, and help discover which you prefer.

 

[HHH Knives]

Congrats Travis on forging your first few billets. Its a awesome and powerful rush, something I will never get tired of.

Get ready to fall into that awesome rabbit hole where things that shouldn't be.. ARE!!! Where stuff that couldn't possibly work.. Worked!!! Then turned out better then you imagined.

And on the flip side of that. Stuff that has worked 100 time all of a sudden don't!! Where what you think should happen. often doesn't look like you thought it would. Yet its still awesome!! Its a place where steel and your imagination meet. Have fun!!

Bruce and Ed covered your question very thoroughly. so Ill leave it at Congrats . I only wish I was closer to you guys where I could join you for all the fun and forging!

Blessings
Randy