Why I quit doing my own stainless: the MATH

T

Travis Fry

Well-Known Member
I get that you want to do your own HT. You have a kiln, so you can easily do what's necessary. Maybe you cryo too to get that last bit of retained austenite. Good on you, but is it worth it? The MATH:

DIY:
$1.50 per blade for foil
$.10 for kiln electricity (estimated)
$10 for time spent wrapping, moving, and especially straightening each blade (20 min at $30 an hour). You could half this number and it'd still prove the point, but you could also add back the same amount for oppotunity cost of that time, so I'll leave it as is.
$.50 for the amortized cost of all of your extra stainless-specific equipment (dewar, quench plates, argon injection system, whatever)
add: cuts, burns, frustration, and learning curve (which might lead to some inferior blades (note I said MIGHT))
take out: satisfaction in having done something yourself and learned a new skill
Total:$12.10 per blade plus pain, frustration, and uncertainty


Pro:
$100 for 20 blades at Peter's HT. Guaranteed straight, cryoed, and HRC tested (spot checked)
$30 shipping (including time going to the PO)
Total: $125/20= $6.50 per blade, plus guaranteed results.

I used to do my own stainless, but this is why I quit. Just saying.
 
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I can see the point.....if "bean counting" is the top priority, then it's the right decision. One of the things I learned long ago about about knife making.....it's not about the finsihed product, or how many you sell....it's all about the journey. While it can be frustrating, and as you pointed out, expensive at times, there are rewards worth far more then an extra dollar ro two.....at least for me. :)
 
I agree Ed. A recent example: I made a big spreadsheet model a while back that calculated the make vs. buy margins for sheaths (that's the nerd alarm you hear in the background), and I proved to myself that under no circumstances and at no price point is it ever cost effective to make my own. When I start to looking at time and opportunity cost of that time, even Paul Long is cheap by comparison. But, even with that knowledge, I still usually make my own because I take pride in the finished product and generally enjoy the process. Not so with doing my own stainless HT, so I outsource and use the saved time to do things I like more.

And, as you know I AM a "bean counter" by profession. Whether consciously or not, almost everything that costs me time or money gets analyzed for cost vs. benefit. It's second nature for me because of training and inclination. I recognize too that costs and benefits are defined in both monetary and non-monetary ways, and either can be more important than the other, depending on the circumstances. Today I'm taking my 5 year old to get icecream when I get home, and not making knives. Once is certainly more cost effective monetarily, but no amount of knifemaking beats icecream with your daughter.
 
I think for a lot of guys, it makes sense to send blades off. I used to do that when I started. It's probably cheaper for at least the first several hundred blades.

>disclaimer - I sell ovens<

The difference is I found I loathed building up a 20 blades batch to heat treat. I also wanted to experiment with difference hardness blades for performance testing. I also found that if I could grind and heat treat a blade or two in a weekend, my production and interest went up. I bought an oven years before I knew I was even getting into the supply side of the knife business.

If I was a full time maker and had some standard blade designs that I knocked out in quantity, I would send off batches to Peter's or Buck, or one of the others to get done in a batch just to keep the cost down. If I was a "high volume" part time maker, same thing. I'd probably send them out. If I was a part time guy that just wanted to do one off's and try out different steels, I'd get an oven.

If I loved tools, and everyone should, I'd get an oven.
 
Travis,
I agree whole heartedly,


When I started knife making I was fortunate enough to be able to hang out with the late R W Loveless for a few days. When I asked him about getting the ATS-34 and 440C blades I was working on Hted and should I buy an Oven etc?.. He told me, "Just send them to Paul Bos heat treatment and spend your time making your knives.That's what I do."
So thats what I've done with all of my Air-hardening ever since some 17 and change years. I did do some canola quenching on some 10XX series steels when i was still green as part of the journey as Ed commented. I wanted to do it hands on, to see the process for myself.
 
I should add that I still do my own carbon blades because I like to do it. I like that I can edge quench or clay quench. I like that it's DONE fast, without an hour and a half of ramp time for the kiln and then cryo after. I like to play with hamons and to try new alloys, just because I can. My next purchase will likely be a new oven, so that I can do EVEN BIGGER carbon blades and do an even better job. I even got a hardness tester recently to help verify that I'm doing it right. Not because it's cost effective, but because I like knowing. For stainless, it just isn't worth it to me, even if it were cost effective.
 
It's kind of a skewed assessment still.

With sending blades to the "pros", you have to figure packing materials, your time to box it up and print shipping labels and/or go to the post office, which then includes gasoline........etc.

That would bring the numbers of the two sides a little closer together.


Just pointing that out. :)
 
Travis Fry said:
...I still do my own carbon blades..... I like that I can edge quench or clay quench. .....

I even got a hardness tester recently to help verify that I'm doing it right. .........
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Also, going by the above quote, I'm not sure how much your hardness tester is going to help you. Sorry Travis.........just playing Devil's advocate here this morning. :D

I don't fault anyone for sending blades off, or doing them themselves for that matter. I totally agree that it's up to each individual to decide which way to go for their own reasons.
 
good point on the hardness tester. If you are going to have an oven, you would benefit *a lot* from having a hardness tester.

Anytime I have followed a steel company heat treat recipe on stainless, I have never been off on the target hardness. I still feel better confirming how hard the blade is every time though.
 
I think Tracy hit on a good point... I like that I can start with stainless bar stock on Saturday morning and end with 8 or 10 one-off blades heat treated and ready for hand sanding by Sunday night. I've also had blades waterjet cut then sent to Brad. Both have their place in the industry. However, if I want to make one or three of something, and I have orders for a few in CM154 and a few in D2, for example, it's just less complicated IMO to do them myself. I don't have to do 20 at a time, I don't have to mail them, and I don't have to wait on them to go and come back.

I was in on the "sheath spreadsheet" discussion. FWIW, I figured out a few things after the fact. Based on the spreadsheet result, I made a deal in February with a local guy who will make me sheaths that fit about 75% of my knives for $25 each. I made a deal for 20 of them. Four or five trips to his shop later, I still don't have a single one. Kind of like the argument about stainless... sometimes it's just easier to do it yourself, even if the bean counting says it's not worth it. Another thing I figured out... we ran numbers and discovered that we make around $30 an hour making knives, and about $15 an hour making sheaths. On paper, we should never make sheaths. In reality, I don't freely exchange knife time for sheath time. I make knives when I want to get dirty or be in the garage. I make sheaths when I want to be lazy and watch TV. It takes energy and concentration to stand at the grinder or the sanding bench. It takes much less energy and concentration to sew a sheath. So, I make $30 an hour on weekends and maybe one night a week grinding, polishing, etc, and I make $15 an hour a couple more nights a week working on sheaths and watching TV.
 
BossDog said:
good point on the hardness tester. If you are going to have an oven, you would benefit *a lot* from having a hardness tester.

Anytime I have followed a steel company heat treat recipe on stainless, I have never been off on the target hardness. I still feel better confirming how hard the blade is every time though.
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i just wish there were reliable hardness testers that didn't cost a week's pay. i dont know how reliable "hardness files" would be. a setup like we have at the office is probably over $10k, and that does not include having an outside source calibrate it twice a year.
from reading these posts and doing some googling, it appears stainless HT is much more complicated, longer, and more sensitive to temperature changes than low alloy HT
 
Travis Fry said:
I even got a hardness tester recently to help verify that I'm doing it right.
Click to expand...

I hear what you're saying John. I used the world "help" intentionally. There is no perfect test that incompasses everything that makes up a good blade, but I can tell that if my 1095 comes out of the quench at 55HRC, something is wrong.

My brother makes another good point, which is part of why I still make my own sheaths too. The opportunity cost of time is only relevant to a particular activity if that time would in fact be spent doing a more profitable activity. So rather than taking up more profitable knife time with less profitable sheath time, the reality is that I instead replace completely unprofitable TV time with semi profitable sheath time. And as some have said about stainless blades and doing your own HT, sometimes it isn't worth waiting.

I'm not saying people should or shouldn't do their own stainless, just that if you choose to do it yourself it isn't because it makes the most financial sense. I'm an accountant, so the financial evaluation is what comes most naturally to me. Less than 25% of my blades are stainless, and I always do my own HT with my carbon blades. I sold my tiny kiln when I moved to Canada, and will soon be getting a bigger, better one with the proceeds of my stainless batch.

The only thing I'm really trying to accomplish in this post (if anything) is to get people thinking about the economics of work. People (myself included) waste a lot of money simply because we don't think about the implications of our processes and actions. Sometimes we may not care. As with the sheath example, sometimes we can analyze and find the right economic answer, but still choose to act otherwise because of other factors. But sometimes we just do stuff, and if we thought about it would quit doing it. For me, that's heat treating my own stainless, because I lose no value that is important to me. Sometimes we want to do something, but the economics really make it ridiculous so we don't. For me, making folders falls into this category because the eat up twice as much time and I get the same return as for a fixed blade. Economics MATTER, even if they affect the value equation differently for different folks.
 
I just recently got an oven. I never sent blades to the big HT companies because I never had enough blades for batch. I work on 5-6 knives at a time so it never made sense to me. I also like the idea of being able to do everything myself. I do this as a hobby, so the "journey" is more important to me than the cost.
 
There's another good analogy that we haven't touched on yet:

They make you learn to do the math on paper before they let you use a calculator. The answer is the same either way, but one way you learn the process, where the other way you just get the answer.

There is value in learning to heat treat your own stainless. At some point you can choose to send it out, but by that time you're making an informed decision. To become a "knifemaker" and never learn to HT your own stainless is like skipping straight to the calculator. The end "answer" (product) will be the same, but one of us knows the math.
 
This is a good thread. Thanks Travis.

I just bought a paragon furnace through Tracy. I got it with the rs-232 connection so I can track the actual individual heat treats. For me the issue is less cost effectiveness than it is control. I have been burned enough over the years by outside processes as a machinist that I instinctively try to keep everything in house. That doesn't mean I will do any better job than an outside processer.

I also think like a bean counter. I think that profitability in knife making is low. Especially if you do not have a name. So the trick is making everything you do that is repetitious efficient. Prepping for heat treat, and heat treating/quenching/cryo/tempering are repetitious activities that require efficiency over skill. These are the ones that you want to highly systematize. Good set-up is the key to making money on any repeat job. So, fixtures, organization of materials, etc. can go a long way towards dropping those costs.

As all of you have stated it is not merely a dollars issue. So handing off that chore may make more sense in the long run. However, the outside Heat treat companies, which are probably not huge, are making money at doing it. Yes they are bundling your work with other peoples work so they are a bit more efficient even still. A serious review of your shop and methods may go a long way towards dropping the HT costs.

My intent is to corral as many of the MFG processes as I can. You can waste a lot of email/phone time shaking down work that didn't turn out right or didn't show up on time. I think also the more involved you are with each aspect of your build the more it is uniquely "your" blade. Has your mark on it, right?

I quit thinking in the terms of "hobby" 13 yrs ago when I started my shop. I do things that I enjoy in the shop with the perspective of making money at it. Doesn't mean I always do but that is always the direction. Toy trains, model airplanes? Unh-unh....don't have the time. So it's less a journey and more a business on anything I do. I like nailing down cost and shopping things out and trying to be efficient. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy the beauty and labor involved but I always am thinking of resources used and time involved.

It might be at some point I realize that it is more cost effective to send stainless steel out for HT. Right now I want to maintain control over what I do.
 
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I have been looking at this with interest over the last day or so. As a new maker, sending my blades out to Peters or Paul Box makes a lot of sense. At the prices they offer, I can get a lot of blades done for the price it would cost to set up a proper HT operation. I also know that they will be done right by experts, which can be a selling feature. You know blades treated by Bos will be on par with the best blades in the business

Another thing that I looked at was sheaths. I found pre made pouch sheaths from north coast knives at 14 bucks per. I can't make them that cheap unless I buy in bulk which I can't do right now. I also can't match his experience.

By out sourcing these tasks, I can focus my energy on the blade making itself and spend the time getting better at that.
 
Tony Manifold said:
I have been looking at this with interest over the last day or so. As a new maker, sending my blades out to Peters or Paul Box makes a lot of sense. At the prices they offer, I can get a lot of blades done for the price it would cost to set up a proper HT operation. I also know that they will be done right by experts, which can be a selling feature. You know blades treated by Bos will be on par with the best blades in the business
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Tony,
Its my understanding that Paul Bos helped write the formulas for the HT of some stainless for a cutlery application.
Also there is a little logo you can get from a stencil company that has (Bos >>>> and a flame behind that's approved to use on knives they HTed. I have some at my shop and can send you one if you like?

if runs about 7-15Bucks a blade with shipping I always batch then in 20 or more lots, But they will even do one blade for you.
 
I do my own H/T 90% of the time. I only send blades out that absolutely require LN because I don't have a dewar (yet). H/T is probably my favorite part of knifemaking and I like to do as much in my shop as possible. If it was all about $$$ then I wouldn't be making knives.
 
Good thread...I don't like doing stainless because of the time involved . I make about 5 blades a month so it would not work for me to ship out. But if I had a guy down the street doing it I would send it to him. A lot of things involved in knife making are less than profitable and I can agree with all points in this thread.

For me I like to have control over my blades for better or for worse and having only started 2 short years ago I am still trying to gain experience . I also agree with Tracy about heat treat recipes . Every time I have done stainless and followed the recipe from the manufacturer It has come out as they said .

But I mostly forge these days so I could really care less about stainless steel. But it is definitely worth learning how to do it but I can also see why someone would send it out.
 
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