Knifemaking abrasive costs

Well, I tried to stay out, but since ya'll insist...

Firstly, you obviously have a very efficient process. Do you use multiple sanders, or switch belts out on a single machine? Work/grind in batches or take individual knives through completion? Have you tried to minimized the number of different grits used? Do you have a target number of knives per day? or week? What of the time you spend designing, accepting and filling orders, ordering supplies, talking to customers, shop maintenance and clean up, etc, etc? How much time does this take up in an average day, or would it average to per knife? i.e. what proportion of time is spent in shop production time vs other things? My initial thought is it would be fairly significant and thus require the shop rate per hour of production to need to be increased significantly to cover the other tasks.

As someone who came into this newest obsession from a smithing perspective, I have to ask what about forging vs stock removal? material / utility / equipment cost differences? time/efficiency per knife?
 
Well, I tried to stay out, but since ya'll insist...

Firstly, you obviously have a very efficient process. Do you use multiple sanders, or switch belts out on a single machine? Work/grind in batches or take individual knives through completion? Have you tried to minimized the number of different grits used? Do you have a target number of knives per day? or week? What of the time you spend designing, accepting and filling orders, ordering supplies, talking to customers, shop maintenance and clean up, etc, etc? How much time does this take up in an average day, or would it average to per knife? i.e. what proportion of time is spent in shop production time vs other things? My initial thought is it would be fairly significant and thus require the shop rate per hour of production to need to be increased significantly to cover the other tasks.

As someone who came into this newest obsession from a smithing perspective, I have to ask what about forging vs stock removal? material / utility / equipment cost differences? time/efficiency per knife?

I am on my lunch break at the office(high volume automated forging of car parts) so I thought I would answer some of the questions. I have on belt sander I use for blades, a portable belt sander I sometimes use on handles, and a disc sander I am learning to use. I cut and shape my blanks with a bandsaw and bench grinder. I use a 14" b%stard file to rough in my bevel. When I have 5 or 6 blanks done, I sand with 60 grit, then 80 then 120. harden. scrub with scotch brite before temper. temper. sand 120 then 240. attach handle and apply finish to handle. sand 320 dry then 320 wet then 600 wet, then 800 wet.
i am a part timer, so no quota. I order supplies when I need them and have the extra funds to pay for them.
If I do it full time, i would set up a build for stock system and only advertise for sale what is on the shelf.
I do stock removal and heat treat in a small lab furnace.
Scott
 
Labor productivity? That is where it gets scary to me, but I'd like to say that in an employee situation some quotas of production or minutes per task are going to be necessary, with very firm conditions of employment. I'm one of the older Gen Y guys and the rest of the 30 and younger crowd continues to find novel ways to disappoint me when I offer even $15 an hour cash for a simple repetitive task. I'll leave it at that for now. I sure wish some of you guys were a lot closer and we'd get some real work done.
so, can I get a job next summer, will be looking for work on the second of june. I have medical thru the military, so the only benefit I would want is some Pink Floyd or Grateful Dead playing in the work space. $15 an hour would work.
the old sailor
 
Firstly, you obviously have a very efficient process. Do you use multiple sanders, or switch belts out on a single machine? Work/grind in batches or take individual knives through completion? Have you tried to minimized the number of different grits used? Do you have a target number of knives per day? or week? What of the time you spend designing, accepting and filling orders, ordering supplies, talking to customers, shop maintenance and clean up, etc, etc? How much time does this take up in an average day, or would it average to per knife? i.e. what proportion of time is spent in shop production time vs other things? My initial thought is it would be fairly significant and thus require the shop rate per hour of production to need to be increased significantly to cover the other tasks.

As someone who came into this newest obsession from a smithing perspective, I have to ask what about forging vs stock removal? material / utility / equipment cost differences? time/efficiency per knife?

Right now I'm running just the single KMG grinder. I need another one to save on time spent changing the tooling on it out and to give room for greater production. Switching belts is fast but I'm thinking of putting a wheel brake on it to speed up the belt changes somewhat.

I really try to make at least two if not four or more of a given model if they're something I already have a pattern of. Sometimes I finish the blades and bolsters out then save the handle choice and finish for later. I make a lot of my small and mid sized carbon steel blades "by the bar", however many blanks fit on a 72" section of the steel as the high carbon is inexpensive and heat treats quickly. I run them through the final temper and have them ready to finish on demand which helps my turnaround on the more popular ones. I bet that the time savings working in batches is at least 10% if not more as changing out tooling and going from operation to operation, then cleaning up after really stacks up doing them one at a time.

Right now I've cut out as many grits as I can. All I have in stock are the Blaze, two backings of Norax, and a scotchbrite belt. Between 36-60 grit on the Blaze depending on what was the most cost efficient at the time of the order, to 3 grits of the Norax in both backs, 100, 45, and 16 micron, plus 5x in the flexible. I stock the black Ali-Gator grit paper from 180 to 2000 grit although I do need to get the red wet or dry style as the black will stain some handle materials. Standard progression is 5 grits, 60g-100x-45x-15x-5x. I've heard of guys taking as many as eleven grit steps.

If I start early, and stay focused, make it all "shop time" and leave the heat treating out of it with a raw to heat treated blank swap I can usually finish up a pretty nice knife and sheath in one entire day. That's my target and it amounts to a 4" hunter with a mirror polish and some stag. Figure 10-12 hours, focused, I can put down $250 to $300 in labor a day. I see half of that or less after taxes and shop costs so it's not the huge goldmine you might think. I usually start on the sheath about the time the handle glue-ups are drying so that task is pretty active with the current project as well. Now, I very rarely get that much accomplished in a day anymore plus other shenanigans. Figure how many knives you can finish and have ready to sell in 40 hours a week is a good goal if you're "full time" - of course it amounts to twice those hours with everything considered, though.

There are huge time sinks in custom design and all the support stuff. Couple of hours a day, averaged out I'd say. You'd have to break it down to minutes per task and get a large enough sample to average it accurately. For example, I can final QC, wipe down a knife and sheath, wrap it, box it with void fill, print the shipping label and drop it off at the Post Office in ten minutes. But that simple shipping task can take two hours, and it has, if my printer hangs up or PayPal changes their label format and I have to reinstall drivers or something ridiculous like that. Averages over a month or year are going to be where it's at. Some knives have zero design as I eyeballed them, drew a pattern and still manage to sell them in multiples - other times I'll have ten hours in a big expensive project with dozens of back and forth emails and several phone calls.

I'd like to be able to charge for every minute I put into the job but that's just not realistic right now. I could sell maybe a knife a year at the price that would demand - the $1400 hunting knife, for example. My $300 day of labor, when split up and divided between paying work and all the work it takes to be able to DO the work, comes out to perhaps $10 an hour take home after taxes, equivalent to $14.00-$15.00 an hour at my previous job. The interesting part of that is, I could hire an employee, or six and pay them a wage which would make them more per hour that I actually make at this early point, yet take a lot of the multiple tasks out of my hands and let me focus on the real profitable stuff, and we'd be by far the better for it. It's just a matter of getting the demand for that kind of volume. I'm trying to work on my infrastructure so to speak and so far it's paying off in spades.

Scott- I'm serious. Give me a PM. 2014 is going to be big and right now I'd tentatively call 2013 a "Success". I had some IRS issues that held back expansion for months but I kept the ship floating and with some of my production style pieces in the works I now am officially so far behind I cannot afford to ever stop. I hope I have the stamina and ambition to rise to the occasion.
 
Brilliant thread.

i am considering starting up a Best Of KD section where well thought out educational posts like this are consolidated in one are. I think this one may be the thread that gets it done.
T
 
more ideas to decrease cost/increase productivity
will be applying them to current project, a nakiri clone, 5" x 2" x 0.10 1080+ blade, 1/2 tang, {cost of steel about $3} an option would be Sheffield O-1 which would raise steel cost to about $5.

will do pre-heat treat shaping with files only. estimating 10-15 min of time. using new 14"mill B and 12" mill S. total cost on files $35. files should be good for at least 100 blades. cost $0.35

heat treat: using 1080+/80CrV2 , my small furnace and small range cold to cold (start with cold furnace and oven; end with tempered blade) 75-90 minutes
10 minute soak at 1475. oil quench. temper at 375 for 30 minutes. cost $0.30

after hardening, hand scrub with green S-brite after temper, hand scrub with red S-brite then do entire blade with blue S-brite and 90degree die grinder. time 5min cost $1.
finish edge, do first level of sharpening. 120 grit Norzon. 10 minutes. one belt. cost $6.25
wrap blade in blue painter's tape $0.10
handle will be book matched oak burl(from tree in my son's yard). material cost $0 10 minutes
attach handle using 2 3/16" 18-8 dowel pins. devcon makes a 5 minute set, 2hour cure, high strength epoxy. need to do further testing of a knife made with this product. I will use JB weld for this blade. $1.25 for pins and glue
shape handle and get it ready for finish use various a/o wood belts. 15min one belt cost $2.00
i use water based polyurethane for floors to finish my wood handles. 5 hand rubbed coats(each coat needs about an hour to cure) takes about 6 hours total. cost of wood: $0.00 total time: 10-15 minutes cost for finish:$ 0.25
sharpen and finish blade will start with 120 norzon , 320 then 600 SiC wet. 30 minutes one belt cost $3.50

material: $18 total time is less than 2 hours. I did not count curing time for epoxy or finish. I figured 20 minutes for heat treat. with sheffield O-1 material will be about $20, total time about 2.5 hours, all the extra time going to heat treat.

should be ready for sale at this point. I am thinking $75. will post some in progress pix.

Scott
 
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Frank - I have to commend you for putting this information out there. You have shared more than I would have dared to ask already. I did get a little lost though. I first thought you were talking about a sub 2 hr knife (excluding HT time), but actually you are in the 10 - 12 hr range for a small one? or was it longer for the mirror polish and stag on the 10 - 12 hr knife?
 
Eddie - The 3 3/8" blade knife takes me 2.5 hours as a target. I can meet it without any problem and usually do those in a batch of at least 5. I've bounced back and forth talking initially about the 4" skinner, then the 3 3/8" Rimfire, then back to the skinner. The 4" skinner with stag I've quoted takes me the ten to twelve hours, as it's got more surface area to finish, ground higher, mirror polished, has double bolsters and a considerably more time consuming sheath. For that matter, the timings and costs apply within a few cents to any of my double-bolster knives with an 8.5" to 9" OAL I'd suppose.

I'm following you on that, Scott. I'm thinking the kitchen knives would be the way to go for something like this, definitely. It appears that you're doing the vast majority of the shaping with hand tools - if you can hold to the times you've estimated with that process you've got a slam dunk if you put any horsepower to it.
 
more ideas to decrease cost/increase productivity
will be applying them to current project, a nakiri clone, 5" x 2" x 0.10 1080+ blade, 1/2 tang, {cost of steel about $3} an option would be Sheffield O-1 which would raise steel cost to about $5.

will do pre-heat treat shaping with files only. estimating 10-15 min of time. using new 14"mill B and 12" mill S. total cost on files $35. files should be good for at least 100 blades. cost $0.35

heat treat: using 1080+/80CrV2 , my small furnace and small range cold to cold (start with cold furnace and oven; end with tempered blade) 75-90 minutes
10 minute soak at 1475. oil quench. temper at 375 for 30 minutes. cost $0.30

after hardening, hand scrub with green S-brite after temper, hand scrub with red S-brite then do entire blade with blue S-brite and 90degree die grinder. time 5min cost $1.
finish edge, do first level of sharpening. 120 grit Norzon. 10 minutes. one belt. cost $6.25
wrap blade in blue painter's tape $0.10
handle will be book matched oak burl(from tree in my son's yard). material cost $0 10 minutes
attach handle using 2 3/16" 18-8 dowel pins. devcon makes a 5 minute set, 2hour cure, high strength epoxy. need to do further testing of a knife made with this product. I will use JB weld for this blade. $1.25 for pins and glue
shape handle and get it ready for finish use various a/o wood belts. 15min one belt cost $2.00
i use water based polyurethane for floors to finish my wood handles. 5 hand rubbed coats(each coat needs about an hour to cure) takes about 6 hours total. cost of wood: $0.00 total time: 10-15 minutes cost for finish:$ 0.25
sharpen and finish blade will start with 120 norzon , 320 then 600 SiC wet. 30 minutes one belt cost $3.50

material: $18 total time is less than 2 hours. I did not count curing time for epoxy or finish. I figured 20 minutes for heat treat. with sheffield O-1 material will be about $20, total time about 2.5 hours, all the extra time going to heat treat.

should be ready for sale at this point. I am thinking $75. will post some in progress pix.

Scott

Scott,
As far as expoxes go, I have found using slow cure like the Loctite syringe tube or the Dencon 2 ton works better because there is always a reason I have troubles with the 5 min stuff, The phone rings a customers stops by etc right after I have mixed it up and there is no worse feeling than the epoxy getting tacky and you are not near finished.Also you can clean up any mess on blades etc with the slow cure on your time frame.

The way I do it is to epoxie up a couple of knives, Clean up any mess on the blades etc and then let them sit for 24H while I do other work. The next day I then finish up the knife/knives that I epoxed the day before and then do another batch to finish the following day.
Bossdog sell a slow cure Marine epoxy that I use almost all the time now.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 
I'm following you on that, Scott. I'm thinking the kitchen knives would be the way to go for something like this, definitely. It appears that you're doing the vast majority of the shaping with hand tools - if you can hold to the times you've estimated with that process you've got a slam dunk if you put any horsepower to it.

That is part of the reason for doing nakiri/cleaver/santoku, a straight, flat edge. was amazed at how much steel you can remove in a minute or two of draw filing with a good sharp file. The post heat treat grind will keep every thing even.
I usually use Devcon 2 ton or JB Weld. Just looking for ways to improve the process.
Scott
 
Well I have decided that if I win the lotto I will make knives full time until I run out of money! :happy:

Seriously, You guys have taken this to a much greater length than I have ever seen before. Thank you for your time and insight.
As a hobby maker getting closer to retirement and hopefully being able to support my family as a knife maker I greatly appreciate what you are doing here.
Making knives with no concern for profit is awesome, making knives and being able to turn a predicted and repeatable profit is another case.

Thanks and God Bless
Mike
 
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