BladeBond Epoxy in stock and ready to ship!

Ed,
You just got me to thinking...if it makes you feel any better, I went through almost the EXACT same experience in the rod business. A bunch of the first rods I built in '95/'96 ended up having guides pull out of the wraps about a year after they were built. It was due to the poor performance of a product call "Color Preserver". I had to rebuild several rods for clients because of this and I remember how frustrating and embarrassing it was. After that I never used color preserver EVER AGAIN, until I developed my own about 10 years later...a product called ChromaSeal that is still being sold today.

I hate cheap crap....LOL

Best Regards,

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com
 
No offense was intended by my post Andy. I was simply trying to explain my reasoning for asking specific questions. Frankly, the shelf life isn't the major issue.....but the hold life is. I'm assuming that since the question has gone unanswered, the hold life on Bladebond is an unknown? I know it's easy to get defensive, but please know that I'm certainly not knocking your product.....just trying to educate myself about it.

Its quite possible that at the hobby level of knifemaking, the mix ratio of Acraglass may intimidate folks, but its widely used by serious knifemakers/bladesmiths, and the majority of students who have have gone through my bladesmithing classes. Speaking only for myself, Acraglass is the current standard that a judge other knifemaking adhesives against, which is why I refer to is so much in this thread. I'll leave it alone and will pick some of the Bladebond up at the Blade Show and give it a try.
 
I'm assuming that since the question has gone unanswered, the hold life on Bladebond is an unknown?

Ed were dancing in circles here....the questions has not gone unanswered....I said specifically several posts back I would talk to my engineer on Tuesday and get you a firm answer.
 
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Out of curiosity do some epoxies do better in a full tang handle(smaller gap, not much filling) verse a hidden tang(more filling that full tang, usually has more"room"?(I have heard Acraglas doesn't do as well in full tang situation...is that true?)
Thanks your freely discussion the information! I will be looking to get some of you bladebond to try!
Daniel Rohde
 
I'm interested in trying this and the LR formula. I use systems 3 clear coat for cord wrapped handles now so I'll be interested to see how the LR stacks up. I also G-Flex 655k. It's the thicker stuff that comes in the toothpaste tubes. It does a very good job for my full tang work and is very easy to mix and apply. I haven't experienced any failures with normal use and no knives have come back to in 6 years but I also use mechanical fasteners. I'm also curious as to how long it takes for your epoxy to break down once set but I have another question. What is the heat rating for your epoxy? What I mean by that is at what temperature does the epoxy start to loosen its hold and fail (after it has been properly applied and set of course). I believe G-flex is around 200 degrees and jb weld is at like 400 degrees Fahrenheit. I'm asking for two reasons. In case I have to remove scales to make repairs or in case a customer overseas leaves a blade in a vehicle in the middle of the desert....
 
Hi Daniel,
Not sure why Acraglas wouldn't do well in that application....have you heard the reason why? I'm still a newbie at knife making so I'd like to hear more from the experts. For gap filling, normally you want a higher viscosity resin...known in the industry as "thixatropic". Thixatropic resins are sort of like "ketchup" in their viscosity. Using resins like this can be a problem in enclosed spaces if it's TOO thick because it wont flow into all the little nooks and crannies. What you can do is momentarily thin most epoxies regardless of viscosity is apply some heat to it. This will allow it to flow better for a few seconds, as well as burst any pockets of air trapped in the mix. Just know that when heating a mixed epoxy you'll accelerate the cure...so don't boil it, just use a enough heat to get it to flow. A hair dryer works well for this.
As an aside, the resins we developed for the fishing industry were very much like peanut butter, which worked really well for filling gaps when mounting a cork handle to a fishing rod. The fit was always less than perfect on those, and a thixatropic paste was just the ticket.

Regarding maximum service temp. ours is right around 185-190....so yeah, at 200 you'll start to experience failure. This is a pretty much the failure range for most resins. I'll tell you, one of the trickiest things to do is remove a broken fishing rod tip from a fishing rod. See, fishing rod blanks are held together by epoxy as well. They're manufactured from what is called "pre-preg" which is carbon fiber or fiberglass cloth "pre-impregnated" from a heat sensitive epoxy. So you're trying to heat the tip tube enough to release the epoxy, without heating it so much that you release the epoxy in the blank its bonded too....very delicate and stressful situation when you're dealing with an $800.00 G Loomis flyrod...LOL

Best Regards,

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com
 
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Hi Daniel,
Not sure why Acraglas wouldn't do well in that application....have you heard the reason why?
I don't really remember and I'm not positive I remember but I think it had something to do with the epoxy needing enough "room" to work properly...but I may be completely wrong.

Thank you for your replies!

DR...
 
I have also read the same thing that Daniel is referring to. Specifically, that epoxy needed some amount of thickness (a measurement I can't recall) before it would create maximum holding strength.

Anecdotally, I feel a lot better about my handles after this past weekend. I use West Systems GFlex 650. I had glued up a handle and upon inspection prior to shaping, noticed that I had applied too little pressure to seat the scales to the tang at the ricasso. (Again, because I have the idea in my head of "squeeze out" causing the epoxy to be too thin to hold.) I noticed a tiny gap that I could poke a dental tool into between the liner and the blade. Rather than try to fill this area, I assumed that the scales were probably insufficiently attached and I had better just re-handle the knife to make sure there would be no failure down the road.

Well, let me tell you. It would have been less work to just make a whole new knife.

Since I was going to re-handle the knife I decided to do some destructive testing. First I wanted to see how well the pins held since all I do is rough them up on a piece of 60 grit paper. I took a hammer and a punch and attempted to drift the pins from the handle. The guts of the 1/4" mosaic pin drifted out, leaving the 1/4" tubing stuck in there with not even a hint that it had moved in the pin hole. I then took two big pairs of channel locks, one gripping each scale, and attempted to snap them off the tang. Nada. All I managed to do was chew up the wood some tiny bit. (great stabilization job, MSSI! / John Doyle!)

So I went to the grinder and with a 36 grit belt started grinding off the scales. This knife had two layers of liner on each side of the tang. I thought that since there was zero gap between the liner material, that they should have something of a delaminated look when I ground down to them. (that whole lack of thickness for the epoxy to hold idea, again.) Nothing of the sort. For all intents and purposes, the two layers of liner material may have been a single layer. They were perfectly bonded. Grinding through them in spots showed seamless layers like strata. I could not peel the two apart or get any separation between them. I also could not peel liner material away from the tang, which was also only roughed up with 60grit paper.

I had to take the knife to the grinder and run it on the contact wheel to remove the liner material from the tang. I should have used the flat platen because I gouged the tang in spots where the liner didn't want to come off. At no time was there any peeling or flaking of the liner material. When I was done I had a clean tang with the relief holes filled with epoxy. I make no attempt to clean these holes when I glue up the knife. They are just tunnels for the epoxy to form pillars as well as lighten the tang. The GFlex was good and stuck to the walls of these dirty holes.

As a general course of action, I have been using a hole punch to make extra holes in my liner material so that the epoxy can get this "minimum thickness" at least where the holes are, which will also allow pass-through at the tang holes.

I am no adhesives / epoxy engineer. I'm an electrical weenie by trade. But I can tell you this- GFlex 650 is good stuff.

Andy, if your epoxy can hold like this I'll be your biggest fan.
 
West makes a good product no doubt. What I am trying to do is get the guys away from the likes of Devcon and Loctite. I did quite a bit of market research on this subject before entering back in to the adhesives industry. The number show that the majority of hobbyists are using Devcon or Loctite....UNACCEPTABLE....LOL

Andy
 
West makes a good product no doubt. What I am trying to do is get the guys away from the likes of Devcon and Loctite. I did quite a bit of market research on this subject before entering back in to the adhesives industry. The number show that the majority of hobbyists are using Devcon or Loctite....UNACCEPTABLE....LOL

Andy
A worthy goal! looks like this will be a great alternative!I have been using G-Flex but I will be trying some BladeBond.
DR....
 
Which question was that? If on "bond life", Andy responded to that question on another thread - he talked with his adhesive engineer who responded with something like "a VERY VERY long time" as a statement because I think the "bond life" of a good epoxy is so long it really can't be measured. That is pretty much the same answer I got when corresponding with two other epoxy companies (West and RAKA) about bond life. Since epoxy is inert after cure, it's forever! Providing the temperature is kept within specs of epoxy which is usually around 200ºF max.

edit to add link to Andy's response about bond life: http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?41332-BladeBond-Data-for-Ed-amp-others&highlight=bladebond

Ken H>
 
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I've just got to say my piece here, cause this topic is a HOT topic right now, for sure. I've been told by a few makers whom I respect to NOT use Devcon. I'm thinking, "Why not?" And that, "Devcon cannot be that inferior to other epoxies such as Gflex or what have you." Then I read Ed Caffrey's post from some time ago....that he was told by the engineers (maybe not necessarily Devcon engineers...but maybe so???)...that the EPOXY WAS DESIGNED TO BREAK DOWN AFTER FIVE OR SIX YEARS. Guys...I don't know about yall...but that REALLY REALLY pisses me off to no end. An epoxy that is DESIGNED to give way after 5 years. Just...unreal. I've heard it all now.

I had made up my mind to switch over to G flex or acraglas, but I have a couple of brand new tubes of the stuff Tracy sells. Distributed by Bob Smith, it's the stuff that has yellow print on the hardener and black print on the resin.

Tracy advertizes it as "the strongest bond" of the epoxies (that may be before the bladbond came about).....and was curious as to your thoughts on that stuff as well. Is it ALSO manufactured to break down as well?

Used to think that 90% of an epoxies success was surface prep, but if the stuff was designed to go kaput on you, I don't recon a fella could do much, could he???
 
Ed's quote about epoxies, I have to disagree with...at least when it comes to aircraft and marine grade structural resins. There is absolutely NO way that a company would purposely design an epoxy to fail when peoples lives depend on the bond it creates and the structures it is used to build. Loctite....Devcon, I dont know...thats cheap big box store junk in my opinion, and shouldnt even be considered for a custom knife. But companies like MasterBond, West, 3M, and others....would simply NEVER do this. I dont know who he spoke with, but I have good friends in the industry who work(ed) for Boeing, 3M, and several others that would pretty well scoff at this idea. One of my good friends for years in the fishing rod industry was a gentleman named Dick Kantner. He was the fellow who designed the titanium/carbon fiber skinned fuel tanks on the SR-71 BlackBird spy plane. He also designed the first Carbon Fiber tennis Racquets (Prince), as well as many early composite bows and arrows, fishing rods etc.... and most of what they used is carbon fiber epoxy based pre-preg. Most of the high performance race cars are made with heat cured epoxy pre-preg as are most of the sporting good items you see on the shelf. Satellites as well.... and you simply don't see boats, airplanes and race cars falling apart while someone is driving them, or McMillan gunstocks disintegrating in the line of duty because the engineer decided he needed to sell more epoxy. Heckl I've got graphite fishing rods made with epoxy pre-preg and guide wraps with epoxy of my own formula that are 15 years old and still catching fish as good as the day I purchased them. The chemical engineer that formulates my stuff designed high heat epoxy for Boeing to use to make molds for aircraft parts.....and those are still in use YEARS later, and are being subject to temperatures in excess of 300 degrees on a regular basis during post cure. Choose the right product for the job, and all will be well.

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com
 
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As I think more about this, one way that the people Ed spoke with may have led him to this conclusion wothout a proper explanation is that in most of the big box store brands like Loctite, Devcon etc...use mercaptan based hardeners and are designed to meet a price point. Mercaptan does NOT stand up to environmental stresses...namely moisture the way a polyamine based hardener will. Most of them will only advertise that in VERY fine print on the TDS. So yeah if you take Loctite 5 minute and use it on a kitchen knife that gets washed regularly....you're eventually gonna have problems. We use mercaptan in our Edge 15 product, but its a mercaptan hybrid, that is a very pure product with no fillers. The diluents we use are reactive diluents so they actually become part of the cured coating. None the less it is NOT waterproof, and I make no bones about that. BUT, using mercaptan is the ONLY way to get an epoxy to cure quickly, as in 5 min. 15min. 30min. etc....Our Ultra formula is straight up polyamine, and is certified for use below the waterline, and is Mil-Spec and certified for use in aircraft construction and repair. But it takes 12-16 hours to reach a workable cure. However once mixed and cured it will almost certainly outlast the life of the knife, and perhaps even the user of the knife if used within the parameters of which the epoxy was designed for. Please make no mistake I'm not intending ANY disrespect towards Ed or his opinions, as he's certainly entitled to them. But this subject has come up more than once, and in my opinion its simply a witch hunt that is a waste of time to be engaged in.

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com
 
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I just glued up my first knife with Blade Bond Ultra over the weekend. So far so good Andy! I have only used acraglas up to this point but wanted to give BB a try.
It definitely is thicker then Acraglas, but for full tangs I'm making not a problem.
I always let my mixing cups set with any left over in it with my little popsicle stick. Not sure if this means a dang thing but it was harder to get out of the mixing cup than acraglas, and actually I could not pop it out.

Andy, one question..ok maybe 2.
How long is the recommended mixing time, like with acraglas it says 4 minutes, that is just what I did with BB too.
Also are the screw on tips with the little snap on cap enough to keep the bottles fresh or do I need take that off and put the original caps back on?

OK 3...lol...can I squirt out a line of resin and then a equal line of hardner to measure or stick to using a syringe with markings?

Thanks
Justin
 
Hi Justin,
Haha......couldn't get it out of the cup...awesome. Regarding your questions, Acraglas is like a 4:1 mix I think? and requires a little more diligence when measuring and mixing. Odd mix ratios like that can be touchy in terms of their margin for error in measuring and mixing. Our stuff has a slight margin for error built in. You can be off about 5% in either direction and you wont have any noticeable degradation in performance. But let me say this....PLEASE do not try to mix up super small amounts in order to save money. The reason being is that if you try to mix up a few small drops of any epoxy, it becomes MUCH harder to stay within that 5% parameter...does that make sense? 5% of a 6cc mix is a lot easier to deal with than 5% of a 1/2cc mix. I always recommend folks mix at least 3cc each of resin and hardener....yeah you'll have a little waste leftover, but you've assured yourself a much better chance of being within that slight margin for error we've built in to the product. There's no reason to mix our stuff for 4 minutes. 2 minutes is plenty, but you certainly wont hurt anything by mixing it longer. The pot life on both formulas will allow that, but its not necessary. I want to add, that there is a VERY specific way to mix epoxy properly. First you want to use a flat object rather than a round object....something like a Popsicle stick is perfect. I have a little metal spatula an old mentor of mine in the resin business made me that I'll post pics of at some point. If you mix it on a flat surface, you want to try and gently fold the parts into one another to try and avoid trapping air bubbles. Use the flat edge to SCRAPE all the excess off the surface and introduce it into the mix. If you mix it in a cup (like you did) you want to approximate the action of a rotary cement mixer. Tilt the cup at an angle and and turn the cup at the same time you scrape the sides of the cup and fold the epoxy into itself...NEVER whip it really fast as this will trap air in the mix, which can weaken the bond. The reason for scraping as you go is to make sure that there is no unmixed resin or hardener left in the cup or on the flat surface and everything is mixed thoroughly. The best way I can describe it is a scrape and fold procedure. With the cup, I usually rotate the cup 50 turns to the right while I mix and scrape, then switch and go 50 turns in the opposite direction until I hit the 2 minute mark. Same deal on the flat surface, there's just no "rotating" involved. Its like...fold mix, fold mix fold mix fold mix...ssscccrraaappppeeeee...fold mix fold mix fold mix....sssssscrappppeeeeee...you get the idea..LOL. Also be aware that if you leave it in a cup, you'll shorten the pot life some, because the cup will contain the exothermic reaction and accelerate the cure. If I mix in a cup, when Im done I usually pour the mixture out on a piece of clean aluminum foil....that will allow the heat to dissipate better during the chemical reaction, and the pot life will be longer

Regarding storage, leaving the yorker caps on is fine, just make sure the colored tips are on as well. Ideally what you want is to keep it in a room around 75 degrees or so....not too hot or cold. You want is to keep both parts from prolonged contact with the air mainly because there's all kinds of crap floating around in our air these days...perfumes, air fresheners, chemical fumes from cleaners etc...I had a guy one time in the fishing rod business who every time would build a rod would get HORRIBLE cratering and fish eyes in his epoxy guide wrap finish. He was absolutely convinced I had sold him a contaminated batch of epoxy. I think he was about ready to drive to Texas and kick my butt when I informed him these were formulated in 25 gallon batches, and if his was contaminated, so was about 500 other peoples...and nobody else was complaining but him. Finally we figured out his wife was dousing herself in Chanel No.5 or some cheap perfume in the adjacent room, and the mist was settling in his guide wraps. The perfume had some small trace amount of silicone in it, and THAT was causing the cratering...lol! I am going to dedicate a full Axis Outdoors newsletter to this subject in the near future, so if you're interested get on the email list at newsletter@bladebond.com if your not already.

The measurement of these resins is not super critical. Ultra is a little bit thick to measure with a syringe, but if you can do it that's great. A good way to measure with syringes is like this. Snip the tip off the yorker cap so that its big enough to fit the syringe tip into. Then turn the bottle upside down and extract it into the syringe much like a nurse would do when filling a syringe with serum. Its much cleaner to do it this way, and allows you to reuse your syringes. If the parts are too thick, you can microwave them for about 6-8 seconds to heat them up, and they'll flow A LOT better, and should be easier to get into a syringe. I usually just dispense out lines about 3"-4" long of equal length and diameter get with it. I hate resins that are real finicky about that kind of stuff, because its just one more thing to go wrong in the process, and one more thing for you guys to worry about that you shouldn't have to. My job is to make sure you don't have to think about all that foolishness, and can focus on making knives and not measuring and mixing epoxy.

Hope that answers your questions, and please feel free to contact me anytime.

Best Regards,

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com
 
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BTW Justin...thanks for taking a chance on the product. It means a lot to me that you guys are willing to give BladeBond a try, and I appreciate the business very much.

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com
 
I'd love to find somebody in Canada to do distribution...so far no luck, but if you know of somebody up there, please give me their information and I'll get in touch with them straight away.

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com
 
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