Why so Many Hidden Tangs

[Fred Rowe]

It baffles me, that we are discussing knives in terms that relate more to pry bars than to sharp edged tools built to cut.
If proper heat cycling is adhered too and basic accepted construction techniques are used there is no reason for either a hidden tang or a full tang knife to fail.
If the grinds are correct for its intended use and the edge itself is built with an eye for use, there is little reason to distress over a knifes handle construction.

If a situation arises where the job at hand requires that extreme stress be put on a knife; I'll put the knife aside and select the proper tool for the job.

I just heard this little voice in my head and that is what they told me. Fred

 

[NJStricker]

. . . I think we can all agree that hidden tang knife construction is not inherently strong.

Conversley, in the case of full tang knives, the primary function of strength dictates the subordinate element of form. Full tang knife construction is inherently strong. In other words, a maker would have to try to make a full tang knife weak.

I don't necessarily agree with that at all.

That's like saying a solid rod of steel is inherently stronger than a tube of steel of the same diameter. But, that's not so.

 

[Darrin Sanders]

Craig,

When I skeletonize my full tang Handles, the purpose is to lighten the knife without compromising strength.
Done properly with evenly placed holes, I don't think any strength is compromised.

Cheers!



Laurence

www.westsidesharpening.com/

Done properly, the strength of a hidden tang is not compromised either. I'm gonna back this up by making a hidden tang and passing it around. The first person to make a video of him breaking it with HAND pressure will get a free knife. It may take me a month or two but I will do it as soon as possible.

 

[Bush Monkey]

I don't think we have demonstrated a good grasp of the term "inherent".

Allow me to try again. If you tell 100 people who have never made a knife before to make two knives: one knife with with a hidden tang and one knife with a full tang, you will end up with more full tang knives that are strong than hidden tang knives that are strong. Because...strength is intrinsic (aka inherent) to full tang knife construction. When you take away variables like skill, materials, experience, technique...things become very (sometimes painfully) clear.

 

[Meridian Blades]

Interesting conversation......Ghezell brought up a similiar point to what I was going to say... IMO the hidden tang has a lot to do with handle materials and the fact that up until wood getting stabilized, there were limited choices as to selection. If you think about shrink and swell of your wood handle its harder to notice on a hidden tang blade and will endure longer, versus slabs being pinned to a piece of steel where it can crack and check seasonally. Just a thought but the scandi blades mostly follow the hidden tang model as well. Seemed to work for years and years. I advocate stabilizing but if I was to "risk it" with a wood thats on the fence I would feel more comfortable with a hidden tang design, thats not pinned.

On a side note.....lots of the pool cue makers drill a large hole into the center of their stock and glue in a straight grain piece of maple or laminated maple. The outer layer of wood is not stabilized either and this is their way of keeping the movement down, etc. This theory / concept is similiar to hidden tang construction. Pins and joints are what throw a wrench in the works........

Thats my 2 pennies on it....

Nobody brought up integrals yet..........

 

[rhinoknives]

It baffles me, that we are discussing knives in terms that relate more to pry bars than to sharp edged tools built to cut.
If proper heat cycling is adhered too and basic accepted construction techniques are used there is no reason for either a hidden tang or a full tang knife to fail.
If the grinds are correct for its intended use and the edge itself is built with an eye for use, there is little reason to distress over a knifes handle construction.

If a situation arises where the job at hand requires that extreme stress be put on a knife; I'll put the knife aside and select the proper tool for the job.

I just heard this little voice in my head and that is what they told me. Fred

SEE! I told you Guys! Its those little voices! :biggrin: There the reason there's so many Hidden Tangs.

Cheers.

Laurence

www.westsidesharpening.com/

 

[Dwane Oliver]

When I was in high school I was a dyed in the wool chevy guy. I dont think I could have told you why they were superior, but I thought they were. Truth be told, my dad owned chevy's which is probably why I thought so highly of them.
Over the years I have come to own a number of cars and trucks from several different makers. I have had some very fine cars from makers I had not thought very highly of in the past, and I've had some lemons from the people at GM.

Whick knife design is best? Give me a break.

BINGO , but that wasn't the question from the OP

It baffles me, that we are discussing knives in terms that relate more to pry bars than to sharp edged tools built to cut.
If proper heat cycling is adhered too and basic accepted construction techniques are used there is no reason for either a hidden tang or a full tang knife to fail.
If the grinds are correct for its intended use and the edge itself is built with an eye for use, there is little reason to distress over a knifes handle construction.

If a situation arises where the job at hand requires that extreme stress be put on a knife; I'll put the knife aside and select the proper tool for the job.

I just heard this little voice in my head and that is what they told me. Fred

I absolitly agree Fred.

Done properly, the strength of a hidden tang is not compromised either. I'm gonna back this up by making a hidden tang and passing it around. The first person to make a video of him breaking it with HAND pressure will get a free knife. It may take me a month or two but I will do it as soon as possible.

Absolutly no need is such a task.



I would never open the debate of " Which one is better , hidden or full tang "
AND
I DIDN"T.
I was ignorant as to why people make hidden tangs ,,,,,,, now I am educated.

I think in all of the answers I have found my answer.
People make what they were taught, like , and WANT to.

Lets dont argue the wrong question anymore..please.
OK , now

Can someone recomend a good book or DVD on hidden tang construction. I need to find a more efficent way of building them?

Dwane

 

[Josh Dabney]

Dwane,

Here's my take- 200 years ago it was all about the guard. Today it's still all about the guard.

Lets face it. Full tang construction is severely limiting as far as knife design goes. While we certainly have it made today with the luxury of being able to purchase our choice of steel in whatever size we want this wasn't always the case. If a maker wanted to build a full tang D-guard or S-guard today they just need to be determined and order a bar of 4" wide steel from Aldo and get to it. Of course there will be an extreme amount of wasted steel if going this route but it is a viable option.

For me personally I have and will most likely continue to make both. Why- because I can and I enjoy making knives. I also really enjoy historical Bowies and daggers and hope to be making knives in this flavor with traditional styled construction.

For info on making a hidden tang I'd recommend Nick Wheeler's WIP over at BF. This is an amazing WIP and worth EVERYONES time to read it. -

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-metal-with-you?highlight=nick+wheeler+lorien

Take care buddy, Josh

 

[Meridian Blades]

Bo Bergman book is pretty good if you can find it.........BB folks might have it there, or like Josh mentioned theres plenty O' WIPs out there. Here's a quick one........

 

[Bush Monkey]

Wow! That is a beautiful knife. Elegant

 

[cdent]

I don't think we have demonstrated a good grasp of the term "inherent".

Allow me to try again. If you tell 100 people who have never made a knife before to make two knives: one knife with with a hidden tang and one knife with a full tang, you will end up with more full tang knives that are strong than hidden tang knives that are strong. Because...strength is intrinsic (aka inherent) to full tang knife construction. When you take away variables like skill, materials, experience, technique...things become very (sometimes painfully) clear.

I know I shouldn't revisit, because it can only come across as stirring, but.... It seems like the only thing that's clear is this is a world of variety. It's not so clear that any explanation has been made about the word intrinsic. I like preferences, differences, etc., but get a little hung up with absolutes. Seems like the folks who like full tangs, also see the value in doing it well.

Maybe, if it's painfully clear, it could help with a more apples to apples comparison. Similar heat treat, similar amount of metal in each type of tang, etc. Does design matter at all. Can a purpose made for strength full tang knife with no skeletonizing tang holes in the tang be considered a typical knife as far as weight and balance go. Is it possible for a drilled hole to be a source of a stress riser. Maybe it doesn't matter and there are many ways to skin the strength cat depending on the skinner.

Take care, Craig

 

[Burton]

If a knife is used as a knife it will preform as a knife full tang or hidden tang. Here is a pic of a broken full tang so they can break as well. I think that more of it is in the heat treat than the construction. If you are talking about a 1/4" thick pry bar full tang with no distal taper of course it will be strong but will it cut good?

 

[Meridian Blades]

If a knife is used as a knife it will preform as a knife full tang or hidden tang. Here is a pic of a broken full tang so they can break as well. I think that more of it is in the heat treat than the construction. If you are talking about a 1/4" thick pry bar full tang with no distal taper of course it will be strong but will it cut good?

Story on those handles too.......nuff said.

 

[jmforge]

Of course, I could counter that by saying that a lot of full tang knives look like the maker just cut out a piece of steel with a bandsaw, rammed it up against a grinding wheel and a buffer (maybe),bolted a couple of pieces of bandsaw cut plastic to it and sent it out. :biggrin:

All of the full tang knives I make are sealed with epoxy as well , no moisture is getting in there either.

In my opinion , hidden tangs look cheap , too cheap to use the steel to make them full tangs.

Its great we all have our opinions. The wonderful thing about knife makers is, if you had 100 guys make a 4" hunting knife, you would get 100 different knives.

 

[jmforge]

Fred, the funny part is that the minute that you start talking about putting a guard on a knife, I find hidden tang knives EASIER to make. That is probably different for people who have even a basic knowledge of machining operations, but I am not among that crowd at this point.:biggrin:

There are makers that work wonders with full tang knives, there is no doubt. But imho, hidden tang knives present a greater challenge as well as more options in the finished product.

When I take a prized piece of horn or stabilized burl from the shelf, looking to see if it works with a new damascus bowie I'm working on, the thought of cutting it up, not using it in its natural state just doesn't come to mind . Why cut up perfection?

 

[Dwane Oliver]

Dwane,

Here's my take- 200 years ago it was all about the guard. Today it's still all about the guard.

Lets face it. Full tang construction is severely limiting as far as knife design goes. While we certainly have it made today with the luxury of being able to purchase our choice of steel in whatever size we want this wasn't always the case. If a maker wanted to build a full tang D-guard or S-guard today they just need to be determined and order a bar of 4" wide steel from Aldo and get to it. Of course there will be an extreme amount of wasted steel if going this route but it is a viable option.

For me personally I have and will most likely continue to make both. Why- because I can and I enjoy making knives. I also really enjoy historical Bowies and daggers and hope to be making knives in this flavor with traditional styled construction.

For info on making a hidden tang I'd recommend Nick Wheeler's WIP over at BF. This is an amazing WIP and worth EVERYONES time to read it. -

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-metal-with-you?highlight=nick+wheeler+lorien

Take care buddy, Josh

Thanks Josh , I spent the last 9 hours , off and on , reading through that WIP , AMAZING read. Thanks again.

Of course, I could counter that by saying that a lot of full tang knives look like the maker just cut out a piece of steel with a bandsaw, rammed it up against a grinding wheel and a buffer (maybe),bolted a couple of pieces of bandsaw cut plastic to it and sent it out. :biggrin:

OK , I deserved that.

 

[Bush Monkey]

What happens when you start out with something inherently strong and start boring holes in it? Thanks Spyderco!

 

[NJStricker]

What happens when you start out with something inherently strong and start boring holes in it? Thanks Spyderco!

Lots of knives have been made with perforated tangs to lighten the load, as an alternative to tapering the tangs.

 

[Bush Monkey]

I am aware of the practice and it remains a mystery. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

Lots of knives have been made with perforated tangs to lighten the load, as an alternative to tapering the tangs.

 

[rhinoknives]

I am aware of the practice and it remains a mystery. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

I drill some holes in my Culinary knives and my Rhino Pygmy Hunter, it's really no mystery, Done correctly, it lightens the handle so I can get the balance point at the index finger cutout.
Here are two handled examples.


The first thing a Hidden tang knife brings to mind is those Henckels Twin chef knives with the little rat tail tang, Black plastic Handles and that lousy steel that won't hold a edge very well.
Customers bring them in for sharpening all the time and I even have some in inventory that I hardly ever sell because I steer the customers to something else.

I know all hidden tang are not lousy steel, But in culinary knives it puts up a red flag to me.
That little Mora knife in the pics is gorgeous! I have heard that the Sami & Laplander people can field dress a entire Reindeer with just one of those little knives.

I don't taper tangs because it limits the way I can finish the rear end of the knife.

Cheers.

Laurence

www.westsidesharpening.com/