Huge Stringers

[rhinoknives]

There is an opportunity for education and good discussion here, but not of we are going to adhere to absolutes, opinion often consists of absolutes, reality rarely has use for them.



No material is perfect but there are imperfections, and then there are fatal flaws, there is a whole gamut of conditions between perfection and useless. Thus the shortcomings of asolutes.

Agreed, but then comes the absolutes…

Steel should be treated as steel, if there is a problem in it that the standard procedures cannot handle then those exceptions have to be dealt with on an individual basis, rather than lowering the bar and expectations across the board. That is how the rest of the metalworking world approaches it rather than expecting the worse and treating the most versatile material in the history of mankind with kid gloves. If this absolute held true we would have moved on from steel for a better material long ago, or perhaps stuck with the much more homogenous and predictable bronze.

If absolutes held true then all would share your experience and observations, and I for one have not. I have been squeezing and pushing my steel for most of my life now, and while I have observed many of the same inconsistencies, often microscopically, I have found them to be problematic very small percentage of the time. The vast majority of them can be easily navigated with consistent, standardized methods, and the knowledge necessary to troubleshoot them.



No, merely switching to a different batch or run of steel will normally do the trick.

Now, is the steel supply out there getting a bit lax in quality due to creeping trace elements and a wide array of manufacturing standards around the world? It sure is, and we do have to deal with it, so a constructive discussion on how to best do that would be a plus.:thumbup: But it would seem that you are trying to show somebody, or their position, as “wrong” or “false”, by characterizing the position with absolutes, what would traditionally be called a straw man or paper tiger argument, which will be more difficult to glean constructive input from.

If I am to expect the usual pattern this thread will probably soon veer into a crusade about quenchants or the merits of forging, which I see you have already touched on. If you want to have a chat about how to best deal with steel inconsistencies I think that would be a good thing, I have plenty of things I have picked up over the years that I could share in such a discussion, but if something or somebody has set off another episode, I think it would be best to address it or them one on one rather than disappoint all those who look forward to a good thread for objectively troubleshooting steel inconsistencies.

Tai & Kevin
First I work by stock removal and I purchase my steels by sheet or half sheet from www.nsm-ny.com Stainless and tool. They provide a analysis sheet of the consistency of the trade name steel, Such as CPM-154 or CPM-S35VN etc..

While this doesn't guarantee that the steel is free of inclusions? It does put me in the right dirction and I theorize myself?? that the fine grain structure of the CPM steels also helps in guarding against inclusions being so big that the knife has to be discarded.

So far so good, I also grind after heat treatment and I have had only one knife crack in heat treatment in over 3000.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com

 

[One]

On the philosophical side, since it’s been brought up by a moderator…

I think it is important in discussions to be able to recognize the difference between a “fact” and an “opinion”.

The way I see it, a “fact” is something you can point to, cross reference and verify. It’s a well established bit of information that has been well studied/tested and has withstood the test of time. It’s something you can have a reasonable amount of faith in, but not necessarily an “absolute“. It’s like a card in a poker game…

An opinion is a personal assessment or “filtering of the facts” (no one knows everything or reveals everything), with some sort of logic, motive and/or reasoning behind it. It’s good to have an opinion, it’s very good!,… but good discussion leaves room for numerous opinions. That’s how we learn things from others.

I see the forum concept in general as an “opinion based format“. I don’t think we should have to qualify every statement we make as, “in my opinion” or slap a disclaimer on it. That should be a given.

As far as motives go,… we only have control over our own and it would be very unlikely that anyone else could know exactly what they are, especially in this type of internet discussion format. There is nothing between the lines here that could be remotely considered a “fact“. They are “personal business” and probably best left out of a discussion.

Motives are extremely personal, complicated and multifaceted.
Without motivation,… nothing would get done.

 

[One]

Tai & Kevin
First I work by stock removal and I purchase my steels by sheet or half sheet from www.nsm-ny.com Stainless and tool. They provide a analysis sheet of the consistency of the trade name steel, Such as CPM-154 or CPM-S35VN etc..

While this doesn't guarantee that the steel is free of inclusions? It does put me in the right dirction and I theorize myself?? that the fine grain structure of the CPM steels also helps in guarding against inclusions being so big that the knife has to be discarded.

So far so good, I also grind after heat treatment and I have had only one knife crack in heat treatment in over 3000.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com

That's the right way to go with stock reduction.

 

[rhinoknives]

That's the right way to go with stock reduction.

Tai,
As far as a analysis sheet goes, I am sure this information can be available from some sellers of Carbon forging steels also. That may help you avoid this headache in the future.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com

 

[One]

Believe me,... I've tried. The analysis sheets don't show everything, sketchy at the least. Although quality control etc., is usually significantly better on the steels you mentioned than on many of the popular smithing steels.

I think you are on the right track.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

On the philosophical side, since it’s been brought up by a moderator…

I think it is important in discussions to be able to recognize the difference between a “fact” and an “opinion”.

The way I see it, a “fact” is something you can point to, cross reference and verify. It’s a well established bit of information that has been well studied/tested and has withstood the test of time. It’s something you can have a reasonable amount of faith in, but not necessarily an “absolute“. It’s like a card in a poker game…

An opinion is a personal assessment or “filtering of the facts” (no one knows everything or reveals everything), with some sort of logic, motive and/or reasoning behind it. It’s good to have an opinion, it’s very good!,… but good discussion leaves room for numerous opinions. That’s how we learn things from others.

I see the forum concept in general as an “opinion based format“. I don’t think we should have to qualify every statement we make as, “in my opinion” or slap a disclaimer on it. That should be a given.

As far as motives go,… we only have control over our own and it would be very unlikely that anyone else could know exactly what they are, especially in this type of internet discussion format. There is nothing between the lines here that could be remotely considered a “fact“. They are “personal business” and probably best left out of a discussion.

Motives are extremely personal, complicated and multifaceted.
Without motivation,… nothing would get done.

Heat Treating forum seems fairly straight forward, and yet it is repeatedly confused with a philosophy forum, a science versus art forum, or the Forging forum. Deviating into a forging discussion at least left me with the option of moving the thread to the forging forum where everybody would have been free to discuss all they like without any further inference or involvement from me. I don’t know what forum at Knifedogs would best accommodate a “take the moderator to task on the definition of opinions, facts and how he should do his job” thread. So my only option is to lock a thread that cannot seem to find its path, before it becomes more contentious in the effort. To be honest the fact that you didn’t jump at the offer for it to be moved to the forging forum tells me that the argument here was more important than an actual discussion there.

Laurence, I apologize for having to cut the conversation short before giving you input, please feel free to e-mail if I can be of any help.