Garbage steel

[jmforge]

Not to offend anyone's material choices, but why are so many people infatuated with using "junk" or "mystery" steel for blades or to make damascus? Likewise, why are folks excited about including materials in damascus, sam mai, etc that does not harden like copper, pure nickel or even wrought iron or mild steel for that matter? Sometimes, you can't even argue that it looks good. It's one thing to use say "NOS" steel like Hanson/GM W2 or perhaps ball bearings/races or crane cable back when there was no other readily available source for 52100 or 1084. Why now? Some makers of rather pricey knives would have us believe that is it a BETTER thing to be buying a knife made from recycled saw blades, etc. because that somehow helps the environment. Most steel we get today is already recycled. Now you kids get off of my lawn!!!!

 

[Bühlmann]

Regarding san mai, the use of mild steel, wrought iron, or lower carbon options are correct in traditional construction & offer the desired mechanical characteristics for the blade. Making san mai out of three layers of hardening steel results in the mechanical equivalent of a monosteel blade that simply visually mimics a traditional san mai blade. That’s not a bad thing and is probably more common today because of the cheap availability of high carbon steels. But if a guy is interested in traditional construction then it’s not done using all hardening steel.

Using copper & pure nickel is purely for cosmetic effect. It looks cool, & what’s wrong with that? YMMV, of course.

 

[Gliden07]

Lots of reasons to use mystery steel! Some reasons off the top of my head, Cost, practice, availability. Heck think of it RR Spike knives are a right of passage along with Farrier Rasp knives and Tomahawks. Beginners always looking for a cost effective way to get more forge time! Another reason to repurpose old material is from a loved one that may have passed for a remembrance. Probably as many reasons as to use known steel! The thing that bothers me the most about recycled/repurposed material is Beginners pick up a piece of steel of totally unknown origin and start asking "found this piece of steel in the garbage pile near the Nuclear plant, will it make a good knife??" NO one can answer that question!! Anyway I believe as you move on in your journey you will graduate to known steels and make better knives. I still enjoy making File knives once in a while, why not!! Just know this I don't sell them!!

 

[tmr]

one mans beans is another mans bacon.....the issue of steel choice and makers preference goes on and on and on.....and every one thinks that their choice is the best.......i do think that the title or the thread is a little harsh as we all know a lot of great knifemakers use recycled steel.....just saying........

 

[52 Ford]

I use a lot of mystery metal.

HOWEVER, I don't sell knives made of mystery metal. Since I can't really know how it'll perform.

I use it for shop tooling, mostly. For that, a spark test, then a test heat treat are good enough for me.

Maybe one day I'll pick up an XRF gun...

Sent from my Champion Forge using Tapatalk

 

[opaul]

one mans beans is another mans bacon.....the issue of steel choice and makers preference goes on and on and on.....and every one thinks that their choice is the best.......i do think that the title or the thread is a little harsh as we all know a lot of great knifemakers use recycled steel.....just saying........

This.

 

[J. Doyle]

Not to offend anyone's material choices, but why are so many people infatuated with using "junk" or "mystery" steel for blades or to make damascus? Likewise, why are folks excited about including materials in damascus, sam mai, etc that does not harden like copper, pure nickel or even wrought iron or mild steel for that matter? Sometimes, you can't even argue that it looks good. It's one thing to use say "NOS" steel like Hanson/GM W2 or perhaps ball bearings/races or crane cable back when there was no other readily available source for 52100 or 1084. Why now? Some makers of rather pricey knives would have us believe that is it a BETTER thing to be buying a knife made from recycled saw blades, etc. because that somehow helps the environment. Most steel we get today is already recycled. Now you kids get off of my lawn!!!!

I can't say I disagree with you.

I respect everyone's right to do as they wish.

However.....my mindset has always been to make the best knife possible with proven methods and known materials.

I do take issue with the makers who sell as a regular business touting high quality blades out of unknown steel as a sales tactic.

And I personally don't understand the whole copper infused blade, or San Mai with soft cladding that touches the cutting edge or using non-hardenable materials in a blade that go into/across the cutting edge.

With copper for instance......how strong is that "weld"? Isn't it just like brazing two layers of steel together with copper? I just personally don't trust that. To my mind that's a sacrifice that trades durability for looks.

I generally feel that if a material wouldn't make a good stand alone blade then it doesn't belong in a knife blade. With very few exceptions.

But again, everyone is free to do as they wish. But that doesn't mean I understand the reasoning.

 

[Chris Railey]

For me personally, I rather enjoy making a piece of useful art out of a piece of steel which was going to end up in a landfill. Its the thrill of taking junk and turning it into treasure. I have made many punches, drifts and other tools from slap junk. I do make some knives and larger blades from repurposed steel it is also a great way to practice forging techniques. All of that being said, I would NEVER sell a blade made from scrap steel. Kind of like John said, if you are going to take someone’s money for doing a job, you should do your best. Your best is never gonna be junk steel.

 

[jmforge]

Regarding san mai, the use of mild steel, wrought iron, or lower carbon options are correct in traditional construction & offer the desired mechanical characteristics for the blade. Making san mai out of three layers of hardening steel results in the mechanical equivalent of a monosteel blade that simply visually mimics a traditional san mai blade. That’s not a bad thing and is probably more common today because of the cheap availability of high carbon steels. But if a guy is interested in traditional construction then it’s not done using all hardening steel.

Using copper & pure nickel is purely for cosmetic effect. It looks cool, & what’s wrong with that? YMMV, of course.

Is san mai done for "mechanical" reasons or because high carbon steel was rare and expensive in the past? There is a lot of mythology surrounding Japanese cutlery, but answer me this. Who in the West would tell you that a forged monosteel blade is HARDER to do than a forge welded one and should cost a lot more?

 

[jmforge]

I can't say I disagree with you.

I respect everyone's right to do as they wish.

However.....my mindset has always been to make the best knife possible with proven methods and known materials.

I do take issue with the makers who sell as a regular business touting high quality blades out of unknown steel as a sales tactic.

And I personally don't understand the whole copper infused blade, or San Mai with soft cladding that touches the cutting edge or using non-hardenable materials in a blade that go into/across the cutting edge.

With copper for instance......how strong is that "weld"? Isn't it just like brazing two layers of steel together with copper? I just personally don't trust that. To my mind that's a sacrifice that trades durability for looks.

I generally feel that if a material wouldn't make a good stand alone blade then it doesn't belong in a knife blade. With very few exceptions.

But again, everyone is free to do as they wish. But that doesn't mean I understand the reasoning.

The only thing that I can figure is that people think that the "cu mai" stuff is purty. Some make a regular business out of touting USED steel as somehow superior, but superior in ways that have nothing to do with performance. So called "upcycled" materials. Like I said, almost all high carbon steel that we would buy today is made in part from recycled materials. So who or what are you saving? Save the iron ore!!!!

 

[jmforge]

So once you "pack the edge" of the blade with your hair dryer blown pit forge and railroad anvil, all of those micro-cracks in that rusty old spring from the junk yard should work themselves, out, right?

 

[Chris Railey]

Have you ever made a blade from a leaf spring? Have you ever tested a blade made from a leaf spring? I know the “micro cracks” you refer to exist and I also know there is no way to see them. Just like there is no way to see micro cracks in a new mono steel blade I just forged. Just because a piece of steel has been used for another purpose does not mean it automatically has all of these micro cracks. I have never had a blade I have made from recycled steel break unless I was trying to break it by doing something it was not designed to do. Do not get me wrong, I am not advocating people sell blades made from recycled steel as I said above, its not a good idea, but to refer to all who dare to use a recycled steel for their own projects as ignorant or somehow beneath you and your skills Is rather snobbish is it not? Lol.

 

[Bühlmann]

I’ve never seen these guys you are referring to that claim the things you are claiming, but you obviously got beef. Maybe consider directing these questions squarely to the parties that have offended you instead. You might help educate some maker, or at least hear his reasonings and have a constructive debate about materials & techniques instead of just a generic rant on here.

You can start with me. I just forged my first san mai billet a week or so ago using “junk” mild steel (according to you) cladding and a 15N20 core. What would you like to know about my selection of steels?

 

[J. Doyle]

I don't have an issue with art, sculpture art even functional art. But with a knife, sometimes the "art" is diametrically opposed to the function. Maybe a different functional object would be a better choice?........one where the artful elements don't compromise or matter to the integrity?

 

[J. Doyle]

You can start with me. I just forged my first san mai billet a week or so ago using “junk” mild steel (according to you) cladding and a 15N20 core. What would you like to know about my selection of steels?

I'm all for open, honest discussion where people can talk candidly but civilly.

And I'm certainly not picking on you but since you asked, I'll play if I may?

What type and size of knife is the intended outcome of your billet?

 

[Bühlmann]

I'm all for open, honest discussion where people can talk candidly but civilly.

And I'm certainly not picking on you but since you asked, I'll play if I may?

What type and size of knife is the intended outcome of your billet?

Happy to answer. Like I said, it was my first attempt at a full san mai billet, and first time I’ve forge welded an entire billet together. So a big part was just proof of concept vs my ability to hand hammer a laminated billet into something that is usable.

-Can I keep the core straight?
-What kind of rippling will I see once bevels are ground using the hammer techniques I use?
-How much time & effort does it take to draw out 0.330” of stock by hand to 0.090”?
-autogenous weld the perimeter vs. tack & diesel soak. Any practical difference in results?

These were things I wanted to learn. So I fab’d up two billets, one welded, the other tacked & soaked. The welded one is now this profile:



Another first for me with my successful san mai billet is Japanese style “Ko Bunka”. A small, handy, 4.75” cutting edge kitchen utility knife. I know 15N20 is a good steel in the kitchen, and I’ve read white papers on the corrosion rates of high carbon vs mild steel and learned the rates are essentially identical for my practical purposes, so I chose mild steel as a kind of “tip o’ the hat” to the origins of construction.

This knife is for me will not be sold. However, if after testing it, using it, & maintaining it I find no negatives to the mild steel cladding I’d have no problem making more and selling as such. Traditional construction has it’s admirers.

Am I upside down & backwards on this?

 

[Bühlmann]

Is san mai done for "mechanical" reasons or because high carbon steel was rare and expensive in the past? There is a lot of mythology surrounding Japanese cutlery, but answer me this. Who in the West would tell you that a forged monosteel blade is HARDER to do than a forge welded one and should cost a lot more?

I’m far from an expert, but my understanding is it was primarily due to material scarcity, but perhaps an unintended consequence was the added mechanical properties of flexibility and toughness. I’ve read that traditional san mai long blades are far more likely to bend rather than break, extending their utility and longevity. I don’t have firsthand experience in this, just what I have researched.

A monosteel blade is much easier to construct, so I’m not clear on what you mean in your 2nd question. Price is purely a function of demand to my knowledge. I guess I don’t get what you are saying.

 

[J. Doyle]

Happy to answer. Like I said, it was my first attempt at a full san mai billet, and first time I’ve forge welded an entire billet together. So a big part was just proof of concept vs my ability to hand hammer a laminated billet into something that is usable.

-Can I keep the core straight?
-What kind of rippling will I see once bevels are ground using the hammer techniques I use?
-How much time & effort does it take to draw out 0.330” of stock by hand to 0.090”?
-autogenous weld the perimeter vs. tack & diesel soak. Any practical difference in results?

These were things I wanted to learn. So I fab’d up two billets, one welded, the other tacked & soaked. The welded one is now this profile:

View attachment 81848

Another first for me with my successful san mai billet is Japanese style “Ko Bunka”. A small, handy, 4.75” cutting edge kitchen utility knife. I know 15N20 is a good steel in the kitchen, and I’ve read white papers on the corrosion rates of high carbon vs mild steel and learned the rates are essentially identical for my practical purposes, so I chose mild steel as a kind of “tip o’ the hat” to the origins of construction.

This knife is for me will not be sold. However, if after testing it, using it, & maintaining it I find no negatives to the mild steel cladding I’d have no problem making more and selling as such. Traditional construction has it’s admirers.

Am I upside down & backwards on this?

I appreciate your detailed response. No I don't think you're wrong or upside down.

But I also don't think that type of construction is of any benefit on a knife like that. And it may in fact be at a disadvantage.

I want to state clearly that I know you didn't say it was an advantage and that you were just trying something for you.

In that knife, you could achieve the same (similar) look by laminating 1080 or 1084 to 15n20 and probably have a better blade.

The mild steel cladding offers no real advantage in that case, as far as I can tell. I'm happy to be corrected and learn something if I'm mistaken.

Again, I get it if you were just trying something or that's what you had on hand. No issues there.

If I was wanting a knife with that look to sell, I see no reason to use mild steel.

 

[opaul]

After reading all of this thread I’m wondering if I should just use this as a paper weight! Nope - it’s going to be for my enjoyment. I may keep it or sell it. I’ll post pics when it’s finished

 

[Bühlmann]

I appreciate your detailed response. No I don't think you're wrong or upside down.

But I also don't think that type of construction is of any benefit on a knife like that. And it may in fact be at a disadvantage.

I want to state clearly that I know you didn't say it was an advantage and that you were just trying something for you.

In that knife, you could achieve the same (similar) look by laminating 1080 or 1084 to 15n20 and probably have a better blade.

The mild steel cladding offers no real advantage in that case, as far as I can tell. I'm happy to be corrected and learn something if I'm mistaken.

Again, I get it if you were just trying something or that's what you had on hand. No issues there.

If I was wanting a knife with that look to sell, I see no reason to use mild steel.

I think you are correct across the board here, with respect to my small blade. I agree there really isn’t an advantage to using mild steel as cladding, aside from me not wasting good HC steel if I botched the billet. But I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts on what the possible disadvantages would be.

Full disclosure: I’m a big admirer of your work, so thank you for your insight.