Forged vs Stock removal

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Lerch

Lerch

Well-Known Member
Hi guys

I have been looking into getting set up to try to forge some knives and i was wondering what the advantages of a forged blade over a stock removal blade ? does the forged blade hold a sharp edge longer ? etc ?

thanks
steve
 
There is no difference in the two, the difference lies in the heat treatment.

That said, as a forger, there is no greater fun. Moving hot steel with a hammer is just plain great.

Advantages are you can forge to shape what you would normally do at the grinder. The ability to forge to shape blades that would take you a 3" wide piece of steel, can be accomplished by forging, using a section of round stock 1" in diameter.

Bottom line is, forging is fun, try it you'll like it, Fred
 
Haha, ya i figured this might start a bit of a debate, though thats not really what i am trying to get. I was just wondering if there was a functional purpose to forging. mainly iwas wondering if you were able to achieve a longer lasting edge through forging a blade as opposed to stock removal.

Ya i would only be working with carbon steels, 52100, 1080 etc

thanks
steve
 
I am almost certain I will end up locking this thread. I will absolutely delete snarky comments. This question seems to always turn into a heated argument as people get emotional about long held beliefs. Keep it civil, polite and fact filled and we stand a chance at sharing some knowledge. It is a discussion worth having. It is not an emotional, divisive argument worth having.
T
 
Lerch said:
Haha, ya i figured this might start a bit of a debate, though thats not really what i am trying to get. I was just wondering if there was a functional purpose to forging. mainly iwas wondering if you were able to achieve a longer lasting edge through forging a blade as opposed to stock removal.

Ya i would only be working with carbon steels, 52100, 1080 etc

thanks
steve
Click to expand...

My two cents here on this can of worms is that the edge will not last any longer if it's forged and then ground or just ground.
The difference comes from the type of steel and how well it's heat treated.

I am a stock removal maker since I prefer using stainless steels. " Another can of worms" :biggrin: Forging can be fun and you can learn a lot about design by moving steel with a hammer.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 
"I BELIEVE" iron has a natural grain that is manipulated more appropriate by fire and hammer than belts and motors....
BUT, I have yet to stock remove a blade...
SO there is my definite maybe answer......
 
Sorry ahead of time if this turns out badly. That isn't my intention but I couldn't find much info on the question when I did a search. Thanks
 
Some people see just sticking to metallurgical facts as cold and impersonal, but I have found that not only is it the path to objectivity, it the best way to avoid the heat of emotional arguments. Rather that typing a new dissertation, I will simply refer those who are interested to the same article that scott.livesey linked to. I wrote it several years ago, after many years of research, study and personal testing on the subject. It is based on universally accepted facts that industry and the material sciences have established on the topic. I think it is critical that if we wish to oppose these established principles to offer detailed counter data of equal weight. Assumption, and misinterpretation has led to a lot of confusion on the topic in the knifemaking community and insertion of personal feelings has unfortunately resulted in some of the “snarkyness” which should be able to be avoided by objectively applying the data. The ABS, for one example, used to teach many questionable things on the topic but as an educational organization has done a wonderful job at improving their curriculum with verification and adherence to a high standard of accuracy and quality in the information it is based on.
 
I do both and reall see no differance. I started forging because it gave me the ability to use a smaller billet and make a larger knife. I wasted alot of metal trying to make the larger Bowies and thought what if I got a 11/4" piece to make a 2" blade and just hammered it out. It takes more time and as bdeye said I found I messed up more steel in the beginning but now have more versitility. I can now forge my larger blades to shape as well as my larger guards. Not to upset anyone but the way I see it is forging is still in the end stock removal because the knife is just forged to the rough shape and then ground on the belt grinder anyway. I dont see many if any forging the whole knife and it never touching a grinder.
 
The best reason to forge is pounding red hot steel! You just don’t get that opportunity with stock removal. Plus (I may get banned for saying this) but you can forge a lot of other stuff. :)

Is forging better than stock removal? Depends on what you hold to as important characteristics in a knife or the knife making process.
 
Laurence, I think your comment about how much you learn about blade design while forging, is one of the best reasons to forge. When you forge you add another dimension to design. There is more to see when forging. I make a stock removal knife on occasion but I always feel like I've left something out of the process.
Its all good.
 
I make 95% of my knives by stock removal but forging allows me to use steel more efficiently. The steel is of such high quality my only concern is not making it worse in the forging process. So far the blades have performed equally well.
 
I find the time spent with the steel glowing red and the anvil ringing to be, by far, the most enjoyable part of the process of making a knife. I can make virtually any type of knife from a 3/4" round bar of steel, up to 2 1/2" wide blade. I can patternweld til I run out of propane and enjoy every second of it. Does it make a better knife? No, but it does open up a whole world of possibilities that are just not practical, or even possible with stock removal.

And, less grinding!
 
Forging uses less steel......
Stock removal uses more belts...........
The heat treatment and thermal cycles dictate the outcome....


All Hail King Kevin......Thanks for the facts : )
 
Dwane Oliver said:
...All Hail King Kevin......Thanks for the facts : )
Click to expand...

Really? Really? :3: I have my doubts that a hopeless geek, who’s lack of a real life affords more time than is probably healthy for staring at steel cross sections under a microscope, rises to the level of such praise.:31: But the facts of what we do should always be welcomed with such enthusiasm, regardless of the provider.

All that being said, here is my take on forging. After spending quite a few years of my life trying to dispel the myths and clear up the misunderstandings about forging, I wouldn’t make a blade any other way.

First and foremost, it is the most honored way all blades were made for over 3,000 years. That has to count for something, and certainly qualifies it as a tradition worth fostering and preserving.

Secondly, it is just the coolest and most fun way one could imagine to shape a blade! I could never keep the attention of an audience of laypeople while I stood with a bar of steel at a grinder turning all metal that didn’t look like a knife into dust. But the engaging dynamics of forging, the fire and sparks, the ringing of the anvil, and the primal action of smiting something to shape, will capture the undivided attention of something very basic in anybody from 9 to 90 years of age.

Thirdly, you can’t make damascus on a grinder!

Fourthly, while very little permanent effects for something shaped as simply as a knife can be achieved merely through deformation, there are real effects on the steel if we just forget about the hammering. Forging involves multiple cycles of heating and cooling, something that can indeed have profound effects on the steel. Granted, there are about a hundred things that can go wrong in these cycles, and perhaps one or two that can be of benefit, but this puts much greater emphasis on the knowledge and skills of the smith. A totally unskilled grinder can make a knife without changing many properties in the steel itself, but an unprepared smith can outright ruin a piece of steel on almost every level. But if a smith avails himself with knowledge of what really happens inside that steel, each and every heat can be an opportunity to do some pretty cool things.

For example, a smith and a stock remover are each given identical bars, cut for the same length of steel as received from the mill. The stock removal guy will have to follow a different heat treatment, especially in soak times, than the smith; he will benefit most from a good oven. The smith, on the other hand, will be able to more effectively use a forge to heat treat because that steel had been worked from that forge. This is not as Voodoo like as it first appears. The bar was sent from the mill heavily spheroidized since most industrial applications will require easy machinability; this condition will require a long steady soak to put that carbon back into solution. Forging that steel will erase that spheroidal condition over the countless heating cycles and replace it with a fine pearlitic condition, especially after proper normalization, so the forged blade will enter the hardening heat with an entirely different structure requiring very different soak considerations.

The trouble starts when we start viewing one as superior to the other merely because they are different. Just because we create new circumstances with the forge that must then be dealt with in a different way does not mean we have made a great “improvement”, and when we consider all the things that can go wrong, we should probably be happy to just break even. Worse yet would be attempts to test our assumptions by mixing the two methods and skewing the results in a very poor apples and oranges way. A spheroidized blade, heat treated in a forge, with no precise soak will most likely provide disappointing results. It is like settling an argument over which is the greatest athlete in his field, Tiger Woods, or Babe Ruth, and then forcing them both to play baseball to find the answer. The Baseball fans could strut and gloat but in the end would only deny themselves of a richer reality.

I will finish with a statement that in past has ruffled the feathers of collectors who really like forged blades, which is ironic considering I am a lifelong, devoted, bladesmith. If I were a collector with no knowledge of metallurgy or the processes used by the maker, other than the popular marketing, I believe my chances of getting higher quality blade would rest with the stock removers. Too often the quest for the superior forged blade leaves us oblivious to all the things that can go wrong that a stock removed blade is never subjected to. Beware the knifemaker that finds it easier to redefine what a knife is than to take on the challenge of actually making a better knife; Something that neither stock removers nor bladesmiths are immune to.
 
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I just got into making knives in the past year. All stock removal. But I saved a few bucks up and finally found an anvil. Which is not easy to do around my parts at least without driving all day. I have been doing some reading and asking some questions and I have just finished up my heat treat on a little puukko. The steel was a small piece of scrap 1084. I had a lot of fun. But as I found banging hot steel is a hazard I had a piece pop out of my tongs and hit me in the nose and got a nice burn. But I am starting a new craft and I am having fun. I am pretty happy to have a chance to do both. I will see what lies ahead.
 
No snarkyness intended here. Would it be safe to say that a forger is to a stock remover like a potter is to a sculpter? :)
 
Hey guys, I’m also new to the "art" of knife making and often ponder the same question but, for a different reason. Does it make me any less of a knife builder to use a stock removal method, as to taking a piece re-claimed steel and hand forging it? I use and enjoy both techniques but, it seems that people’s eyes light up with amazement when I tell them that I hand forged a knife from an old leaf spring or ball bearing as compared to when I tell them that I started with a 1084 carbon steel blank and shaped it into a design. What are your opinions on this? Oh and one final thought, I have found that a hammer and anvil is a very good stress reliever.
 
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