CPM154CM vs 154CM

Self Made Knives

Self Made Knives

Well-Known Member
Hey, guys, hope this hasn't been hashed to death in the past, but my forum search didn't really turn up an answer.

What's the difference between CPM 154CM and 154CM steels? The appear to be about the same thing to me, but the CPM cost a lot more.

I've only been using O1 so far and I want to try stainless. I was thinking about trying 440C at first, but it seems to be kind of skipped by custom makers now a days.

So, as a relatively new maker, would I notice a difference in CPM154CM from the 154CM? Thanks in advance for any advice.

Anthony
 
The chemistry is exactly the same in both grades. The difference is that 154 CM is made using the old technology of pouring the steel in ingots. The CPM version is made with the powder metallurgy process. The CPM version is more homogenous and has a finer grain. If you made a knife from each version, it would be very hard to tell the difference between them as long as the hardness and geometry were the same.
If you wanna try stainless, look into some AEB-L or 13C26 and harden them to HRC 62. Its one of the cheapest stainless steels on the market and makes an excellent blade if heat treated and ground properly.
 
Darrin is spot on about the AEB-L / 13C26. Fine steel and darn near free. If you do go with the 154 series, don't discount the advantages of the CPM 154. It has about twice the toughness for the same hardness and it takes a really nice mirror polish if that's what you want. It's maybe only about 50 cents an inch more - maybe less than $5 more for a hunter - and you have a knife made from a super steel instead of just a good steel.

My 2 cents

Rob!
 
Ok, I'm interested.... Been reading about AEB-L and 13C26 for the past few minutes, and these two sound interesting too. I'm guessing from my reading they are pretty much interchangeable with each other. I was looking at Admiral Steel for the CPM154CM, they have the 13C26 too except only in one thickness, 0.130". I was kind of planning on 0.156", so might have to look at other sources.
 
Well, where are you guys buying AEB-L OR 13C26? Everywhere I'm looking seems to only carry it in thin stock. I was going to make a couple of hunting knives, and I wanted to go a little thicker than that. Is it made in 5/32" or 3/16"?
 
Second, third, and fourth the AEBL (13c26). Super fine grained. Very easy to sharpen. Holds an edge well. Affordable as all heck and available in the proper thicknesses for kitchen knives. When I jump on the stainless steel heat treating bandwagon....it is going to be AEBL all the way.
 
About the only source I know of for AEB-L in thicker stock is Alpha Knife Supply. I actually prefer the 3/32" & 1/8" thicknesses for hunters and skinners. I don't go any thicker until I get into something the size of a camp knife.
 
Darrin Sanders said:
.... prefer the 3/32" & 1/8" thicknesses for hunters and skinners. I don't go any thicker until I get into something the size of a camp knife.
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The last fixed blade I made (and I haven't made very many) was 5/32" and about 9" long. I really liked the way it felt. I had made the same pattern in 1/8" and 3/16" too, between the three, that 5/32" one just feels "right".

For 13C26, Admiral only sells 0.130" and Alpha only has 0.052". For the AEB-L, Admiral doesn't have it, but Alpha does go up to 0.136". I think I might try one of them, kind of in the middle of where I've been. Price per foot on Admiral is actually a little cheaper, guess it comes down to shipping cost.

I've been pretty happy working with O1 steel, but a couple people are asking me to make them a knife and they aren't too crazy about a knife that rusts. I have to admit, sometimes I'd like to use a knife without worrying about getting oil back on it as soon as I get home (yeah, I'm forgetful and lazy now and then!)
 
Is AEB-L ok for a hunting knife? I hear it needs to be in the low 60's for Rc, but I'm wondering if it is likely to chip when being used in the field. Has anyone taken it down to 58-59 Rc with good results?
 
AEB-L is a razor blade steel. It is specialized for slicing with a scary sharp edge. If your field dressing includes splitting pelvis and prying joints apart, you should probably choose a different steel. If you do mostly gutting, skinning caping and meat prep, you'll be bragging when others are playing with their stones (honing stones). :biggrin:

Disclaimer - I haven't used this stuff in the field. Just pointing out it's design purpose.

I can say it hardens easily into 64/65 and is easy to temper back to anything between 58 - 62.
 
14c28n looks great. I've decided to try it, but, looking at Sandvik heat treat info, I'm curious about heat treat.

Hardening data
Hardening temperature 1050°C (1922°F), holding time 5 minutes, quenching in oil.

That sounds a lot like the O1 I've been using, just a higher temp. No SS foil pouch? Sandvik's website makes no mention of it, and they have pics of knives heat treated without it. I currently use a anti-scale coating to help with oxidation on O1, would that be helpful here too?

I was also expecting a plate quench, not oil. Should the oil be preheated, like with O1? Website makes no mention of it. Also no mention of cryo. Do you ramp to temp with the knife in oven or put it in at a lower preheat temp or at full temp? I know, that's a ton of questions.

I'm going to order from Alpha Monday morning. KenH or one of you familiar with this steel, if you could share your heat treat methods I'd sure be grateful, Google's not turning up much info.

Anthony
 

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Anthony, I think your will be VERY happy with the Sandvik 14C28N. For a discussion of heat treating, check this thread:

http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?34605-Sandvik-Blade-Steels

The info I posted there was mostly from Sandvik's website and a good bit from my discussion with John Foster, a Sandvik technical engineer (neat to be able to talk with a manuf's engineer about the product). I use plate quench, but air would work, perhaps with air blowing over blade. Note Sandvik says as long as the blade gets below 1200ºF in 2 minutes or less it will harden just fine. I will mist a bit of water over plates while cooling, just to cool faster.

On the need for SS wrap - YES!!!! I use 321 SS rated at 2,000ºF as a foil wrap. I've never had a problem with it and it's a LOTS less expensive than 309 SS foil.

http://www.usaknifemaker.com/ carries SS foils.

McMaster-Carr's shipping is $6 or $7 (in that range anyway). http://www.mcmaster.com/#tool-wrap/=tbjhab (bottom of page.)

TruGrit may have the best price on 309 foil (bottom of page -note, this is 24" width)

(http://trugrit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=168&products_id=3988)

Texas Knife Supply also has a good price. (bottom of page) http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/index.php?cPath=659_221_848

Good luck and have fun - any questions, just holler.

Ken H>
 
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Thanks for info and link. I had searched the forum yesterday, but didn't see that one for some reason. I will order my steel tomorrow and might start grinding next weekend. I've got a hunting knife design that I've came up with based on things I've liked or disliked from factory knives in the past. Not sure mine will be any better, but it'll sure feel better knowing I made it.

I'm kind of slow, don't have a lot of time to make knives, but I'll post a pic when finished. Thanks again.
 
Anthony, be sure to post as the design is finalized, then each step of process.... Hey, that would give a WIP!!!! Just post in WIP portion and maybe win $50 (I think it's $50?) of knifemaking supplies.

Ken H>
 
Got the 14C28N stainless in from Alpha, but not too happy with it. Until now, I've been using precision ground flat stock and was really surprised to see how "not" flat this stuff is. Looks like it was cut on a shear, so all the edges kind of have a pinched look, high on one side and low on the reverse. I got a 24"x2" stick, and I'd say there's a 1/8" bow over the length. Took a 10" cut off piece to the press, and gently un-sprung it back to semi-flat, but still not that great.

Would you guys say this common for stock to come this way? Is this what you get from other suppliers too? Maybe I'm just spoiled with the ground flat stock O1 I've been using.
 
chevytrucking said:
Got the 14C28N stainless in from Alpha, but not too happy with it. Until now, I've been using precision ground flat stock and was really surprised to see how "not" flat this stuff is. Looks like it was cut on a shear, so all the edges kind of have a pinched look, high on one side and low on the reverse. I got a 24"x2" stick, and I'd say there's a 1/8" bow over the length. Took a 10" cut off piece to the press, and gently un-sprung it back to semi-flat, but still not that great.


Would you guys say this common for stock to come this way? Is this what you get from other suppliers too? Maybe I'm just spoiled with the ground flat stock O1 I've been using.
Click to expand...

Yes,your spoiled.:biggrin:
Since you didn't order precision ground you received it the way it was rolled out at the factory,Alpha may have sheared a piece to send to you. You must work around these problems. I straighten and surface grind all my 14C28N before even starting to make a knife. This way I get the thickness I want and all my holes are drilled perpendicular to the surface of the steel.
I don't know if any one sells these Sandvik steels precision ground or not. You may be able to have it ground for you if there is a machine shop or another knifemaker with a surface grinder in your area.
 
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