Concerns about heat treat

S

Sampson knifeworks

Well-Known Member
Hello,
I am getting ready to heat treat a Damascus bowie that I am doing for a customer, he has supplied me with the piece of Damascus. It looks like a three bar composite and supposedly made from motorcycle chain and what looks like nickel running through it. Well I have the hollow grind finished and pretty much ready for the heat treat and I have noticed a few welding flaws here and there. My big question is will these flaws have a greater chance to get worse when I quench or have a greater risk of blowing out? My thought was to normalize three times before the quench to help with stress? The customer has stated to me that the knife will not be used "a wall hanger". So, not heat treating would be an option, with that being said I do know that hardened Damascus does take a better etch. Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated!
Sincerely,
Clint
 
Yes, it is possible that those flaws can be problems in heat treating. Of course, we can't see them or know how big/bad they are. But they are potentially places for fractures or delaminations to start/get worse.

One option is to tell him that the steel is not up to your standards and he/you would have to choose something else.

Personally, I wouldn't send a blade out not heat treated. What happens if he passes away? Or gets tired of it? Or gets hard up for money and sells it? But the information that it isn't hardened may or (likely) may not get passed on with the knife. Then guess what?..........It's YOUR name stamped on that blade that may end up in the hands of someone who doesn't know it's not hardened. Additionally, they may think you made the blade with flaws in it too.

I also wouldn't use steel for a blade that I knew contained welding flaws from the start. It's just asking for trouble in one form or another. Sometimes it's tough to bite the bullet and eat the cost (whether it be you or the customer) and start over and do it right with proper materials, but it's probably the right call and you'll be further ahead in the long run.

This is just my take on it. Someone else may have a different perspective.
 
Sampson knifeworks said:
Hello,
I am getting ready to heat treat a Damascus bowie that I am doing for a customer, he has supplied me with the piece of Damascus. It looks like a three bar composite and supposedly made from motorcycle chain and what looks like nickel running through it. Well I have the hollow grind finished and pretty much ready for the heat treat and I have noticed a few welding flaws here and there. My big question is will these flaws have a greater chance to get worse when I quench or have a greater risk of blowing out? My thought was to normalize three times before the quench to help with stress? The customer has stated to me that the knife will not be used "a wall hanger". So, not heat treating would be an option, with that being said I do know that hardened Damascus does take a better etch. Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated!
Sincerely,
Clint
Click to expand...

Hello Clint, the bad news is that I have a lot of "yes"s to your questions. Yes hardening could very well pop welds at an existing flaw. Normalizing will not do much to alleviate this as the inherent problem will still be there after the normalizing, even if the steel is completely stress free those flaws will build stress at a different rate than the surrounding material when things begin to expand from the hardening process. Yes, hardened and tempered damascus will etch with a better contrast, with tempering being the most important part. Soft damascus etches dull, fully hard damascus etches dull, hardened and tempered Damascus gives a great contrast. The good news is that the flaws will not absolutely go south in the quench but there is that possibility.

My conscience forces me to also put this out there- you say it is for a customer, do you really want to sell a knife with obvious flaws? After a lifetime in this business I can tell you that that knife WILL come back to haunt you if you stay in this business, and I say that with much more certainty than if the flaws will pop in the heat treatment. I my opinion it is not worth it and if you are still doing this ten years from now you will thank me for this advice.
 
My opine on this would be to make a trade of sorts or he covers the cost of materials so there is just the time to eat.
I know as a newbie to this there is so much to still learn but putting your name on something that is not to the best you could do and will be eyeballed by others, is kind of a big gamble. It may be just a "WALL HANGER" but still the craftsmans name, your name will be on it.
I know when a flaw exists in a welding fabricated piece stress will cause the joint to fail. It is gonna be a crap shoot if those flaws are just a small cosmetic flaw in a spot of weld or become a disasterous crater in the blade.
 
do you really want to sell a knife with obvious flaws? After a lifetime in this business I can tell you that that knife WILL come back to haunt you if you stay in this business, and I say that with much more certainty than if the flaws will pop in the heat treatment. I my opinion it is not worth it and if you are still doing this ten years from now you will thank me for this advice.
Click to expand...
Kevin is right on the money! I encourage you to take his advice.

Were it me in this situation, I would simply take a black magic marker, circle every flaw, and send it back to the client. Along with that, I would phone the client and explain to him/her the situation.

In addition to what Kevin said, I would add that each and every knife that leaves your shop MUST be the absolute best work you can do. If you're name is on it, nobody will think, or care that you didn't make the damascus....all they'll see AND REMEMBER is that you're name was on a sub-standard knife. No knife order, or any amount of money is worth your reputation or you're integrity.
 
Thank you all for the great advice, I was leaning to them thoughts right from the start and I have the customer stopping bye next week to discuss these issues. The customers friend, a knifemaker that made the steel has since passed away, this piece of steel means a lot to him. I am sure this would still come back and bite me if I did not sign the piece? The money is not an issue with me, I'd rather be fishing.
Thanks for your time guys!
Clint
 
I don't think it matters whether you "sign" a knife or not. Word of mouth will always be there. Believe me, no matter how careful you try to be..... "Murphy" is alive and well, and will always show up when you least expect it. :)
 
I agree with Ed.

A good example of 'Murphy' showing up: The fact that you didn't harden the blade on purpose will most certainly NOT get passed along, but your name as the maker most certainly WILL get passed along, whether you put your name on it visibly or not. :D
 
This also could be a lesson on the inadvisability of accepting material for making a knife from a customer. Now you've made a knife with your customer's material that he had some emotional attachment to, modified it to make a blade only to find out that it's worthless. Now if the material belonged to you you could toss it into the scrap pile and start all over but the material belongs to the customer and you have to return it. You're screwed just about any way you turn. If this happens again you might want to consider telling person that you only work with your own materials.

Doug
 
Yes, this was a foolish mistake that I will not be making again! Now I have the fun task of letting this guy down.
Thank you guys for your input and wisdom.
Clint
 
It seems like there might be another alternative. Your client has a personal connection to this material and wants a knife made of it to remember an old friend. Why not suggest using it for non-blade purposes, perhaps making the handle scales out of it, some pieces to make a display stand or wall mount for the knife that you do make. That way you both win. You might also want to show him this thread to demonstrate to him your concern for doing the right thing. Hope this turns out well for both of you.

Marc
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top