Belt talk

A-V · Sep 6, 2016

Rick Otts · Sep 6, 2016

Go to their store look under belts.I think its Mickey who has a list of belts he suggests.

EdCaffreyMS · Sep 6, 2016

Are Hermes and Merit any good ?

In my opinion NO. I've tried just about every grit of both brands and they are what I consider "el-cheapo" abrasives.

As you mentioned, everybody is going to have their own favorite belts, usually suited to the materials and the way they grind.

Personally, here's my belt list for grinding forged steel, and the occasional SS blade...

VSM XK760X (ceramic) in both 50 and 120 grit
Klingspor LS309 (AO) in 220 and 400
for 600-1200 grit, I generally use Norton Norax belts.
For ultra fine belts, 1200 grit and up I use micron belts

Just as important as belts are sheets..... most makers do a considerable amount of hand sanding. After Norton Black Ice sheets prices went through the roof, I tried RhynoWet Redline sheets, and have been using them ever since.

John Wilson · Sep 6, 2016

ditto on Hermes. All they do for me is knot up into a ball hanging on the rack waiting to be used. I have managed to use up almost all of them that I bought on handles (about all they're good for). The Hermes belts last me about one minute before the grit is gone, and I found them useless on steel.

Laurence (Rhino Knives) turned me onto VSM ceramic belts and I couldn't be happier. I use them through 120 grit. I started out using 3M Cubitron, and while the Cubitrons are awesome belts I honestly don't think you get your money's worth out of them grinding by hand. I think they are engineered for machine grinding under very high pressure, as the pressure breaks down the abrasive and keeps it sharp. I find that these belts glaze over and I have to keep raking them to get them sharp again. They were the best thing going until I found VSM. VSM hits that sweet spot of price / performance.

Then I go to Klingspor J-flex through 600.

I also use the RhynoWet sandpaper. I was buying 3M Imperial and the RhynoWet redline does just as good, especially with Mobil 1 Synthetic motor oil during hand sanding.

*tip: when you are starting out, using Gator Trizact belts at 220 / 400 helps get a flat bevel with a darn good finish. These belts have little raised squares of abrasive and they are greenish in color. It's like laying the bevel on a piece of indoor/outdoor carpet. They don't get a splice bump and won't bugger up your bevel finish. They are slow cutting, but you are trading that loss in speed for a huge gain in flatness and finish. Add to that, they last forever. When they get dull, rake a piece of steel with a corner on it across the belt while it's running. It will freshen up the grit and the belt goes back to cutting. As time goes on, you may discover that the knife is basically done at 120 grit, and 220 and 400 grit are pretty much for removing scratches and building a good base finish to start hand sanding on. As my skills improve, I find that I can skip grits now. But that's because I have begun to develop an eye for when I'm getting the previous grit scratches out. I don't regret having a tight grit progression for the first year or so. Yes, it would be a waste of time and money for a more skilled maker- but I found it helped me.

**tip 2: get one of these big rubber eraser belt cleaner things from harbor freight. They are wonderful for clearing out the loaded buildup in your belts, especially during handle work, and you'll get several times the life out of the belt.

aelgin · Sep 6, 2016

These guys are way above and beyond my skill level so I'd take their advice. My preference as an amateur: I like to start with Norton blaze belts then switch to VSM up to 120 followed by klingspor j-flex up to 400. The j-flex are great for leveling of bevels, Ed has a great video on how to do that. I then switch to trizacts. Like John said they do a nice job of cleaning things up and giving an even finish.
As far as hand sanding I used to use gator paper since I can get it locally, and it worked pretty well till I picked up rhynowet. That is some spectacular sandpaper.

-Aaron

A-V · Sep 7, 2016

Good call on the VSM's then, I've been using 36grit and 120 grits but those 50grits seems to be worth a try.

Has anyone tried the VSM+ belts ? Are they any different? I ordered one just to see what's up with them.

Thanks for all the tips, I will definitely consider those next time I order belts !

scott.livesey · Sep 7, 2016

Until someone comes up with a testing protocol, feelings about sanding belts are like feet, most makers have a couple and some s**ll. no one mentions zirconia belts at all, although they are designed for grinding steel. zirconia belts can cost a lot less than Blaze, i have some Deerfos 80 grit belts coming that cost less than $3 each delivered, Blaze today are costing $7.95 plus shipping. go to Tru-Grit or SuperGrit and buy a selection. you can find zirconia belts from 24 grit to 220 grit. once over 220 grit, you can choose plain AO or silicon carbide. most of the silicon carbide belts are waterproof, with AO some are some aren't. VSM belts in ceramic and zirconia both work well for me. here is a source/reference list:
trugrit https://trugrit.com/
supergrit http://www.supergrit.com/
especially sanding http://stores.ebay.com/Especially-Sanding-Belts?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 VSM and Deerfos ceramic and zirconia Klingspor
red label abrasives http://stores.ebay.com/Red-Label-Abrasives/Sanding-Belts-/_i.html?_fsub=2946666017
grinding steel http://stores.ebay.com/Grinding-Steel?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 Hermes
bladeBoyz http://stores.ebay.com/bladeBoyz15-Knife-Supply?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 Deerfos
Amazon has stores run by Norton, 3M, and others.
Fintech https://www.fintechabrasives.com/ they make their own
Sand Paper America https://www.sandpaperamerica.com/ Deerfos
USA Knife Maker Norton, 3M and others

on picking a belt, a lot will depend on what kind of knives you are making and your grinder. belts finer than 100 grit need lower speed and cooling for longest life. you don't need 36 grit at 4000fpm if grinding 1/32" stock.

BossDog · Sep 7, 2016

The belts one guy uses and gets great results from may not work well for you.

Here's why.
All belts are engineered to break down (exposing fresh new sharp edges on the abrasive granules) using a certain amount of pressure/energy.
This will vary by:
1. The SFPM (speed) of the belt.
2. The amount of pressure used when grinding
3. The grinding process (flat platen, slack or contact wheel)
4. The material being ground (ie annealed, low alloy material vs high alloy stainless)
5. The hardness of the material being ground

Using a belt lube will give you a smoother finish and give you more life to the belt. I don't use it as often as I should but I do use it occasionally. Some belts don't like lube such as Norax.

Some belts are closed coat, some are open coat. Closed coat belts tend to have more abrasive per inch than the open coat. They are also almost always more expensive.
Some belts have coolant additive that keep the grinding temps down and give a smoother finish. There is a difference in performance. Finding out which belts have such an additive is often difficult due to competitive proprietary information. Generally, the more expensive belts have it, the cheap belts don't.

Ceramics like Blaze, 3M 900 and 800 series are typically used for high alloy, difficult to grind materials. Maybe a hardened blade. You don't find ceramics finer than 120 grit. Think hogging. Ceramics are always expensive.

Cubic Zirconium or Alumina Zirconium, usually called Zirc's are less hard than ceramics but harder than AO. These are always priced under, sometimes significantly under a ceramic belt. Most guys should consider trying several different brands. Keep in mind the coating quality: closed vs open or percentage of abrasive bonded to the belt, the belt backing, cooling additives and joint all affect the price.

Alumina Oxide or AO belts are the cheapest to mass produce and they have their place. These should not generally be used for metal removal as generally, zirc's will be the most economical to grind steel. This depends again on points 1 thru 5. Your mileage will vary for sure. AO are best used for man made or natural handle materials. They are almost always open coated so they don't clog up as fast. Never use expensive belts on wood, g10, micarta, acrylic, leather etc. Use cheap AO belts. They will be the most economical almost always.

Engineered AO belts like Norax or Gater belts have higher standards of grit screening so you get a more consistent finish, better belt backing, joints, etc.

Silicone is generally used for hand sanding. Not great for

Cork belts have AO abrasive embedded into the cork granules and are used as a finish belt although they will cut some in the bigger grits. Do a google search using cork and green chrome buffing compound. That process works well and I use it in my shop from time to time.

I used to use Black Ice and switched to Rhynowet for hand sanding. They hold up well, cut a long time with a nice finish. When hand sanding, use oil for cutting, water for polishing.

The abrasive industry is very competitive and you will see a wide range of belt qualities from each of the manufactures. Trying one or two types of belts from one manufacture and saying they aren't any good isn't maybe accurate. It depends on points 1 thru 5 and which type belt you used.

Hermes and Merit make good belts, they also make cheaper belts that don't hold up in our typical knife making application. Just like 3M, Klingspor, Saint Gobain (Norton) and all the other big guys.

Dennis Morland · Sep 7, 2016

Bossdog posted a very good article about belts. Here is a link. It is worth the read. http://usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy.html

DeMo

Belt talk

A-V

Member

Rick Otts

Well-Known Member

EdCaffreyMS

"The Montana Bladesmith"

John Wilson

Well-Known Member

aelgin

Well-Known Member

A-V

Member

scott.livesey

Dealer - Purveyor

BossDog

KnifeDogs.com & USAknifemaker.com Owner

Dennis Morland

KNIFE MAKER