Your thoughts on carbon steel edge retention on hunting knife

samuraistuart

Well-Known Member
I need your help! Friend of mine wants a knife, this may turn into a "run" of knives for his hunting business. Steel cost and availability is of concern, but right now I would like your opinion on which steel might come out ahead in edge retention (white tail deer, wild hogs). I have used both, love both, but have not done much testing at all between the two. I know some of you guys (calling the old sailor) use O7 and have probably compared it to 52100. Right now I have narrowed down the list between three possible choices, Blue#2 included, but here is the list of steels that I can get and heat treat IN HOUSE...big concern right now, otherwise I would go with CPM M4 and this would be a mute point.

Which would YOU go with on a hunter?

1095
52100
W2
O1
O7
Blue 2

We may end up going with a stainless steel, probably S35VN, on a higher end production line later, but for now we want carbon steel that I can heat treat (kiln will not reach 1750 solid...so A2 is out).

Any thoughts on those steels, particularly O7 vs Blue 2 vs 52100? Thank you so much!!! (My initial thought is edge retention might be about the same on those three, being hard to distinguish them?)
 
Well, if you are considering a stainless I suggest you look at M390. Go to the knife testing thread in this forum and take a read on Mickleson's testing. Now my testing has been through customers use in the bush particularly on Moose. It has been over the top of what results I've seen with other stainless steels. On the other hand I find it good to work both in the soft and hardened state. I send my blades out for heat treating.
Frank
 
I'd choose W2 out of that list.

But if you can heat treat those steels, I'd give 80CrV2 a serious look for a hunting knife. It is absolutely tough as nails, even in a very thin edge and it holds it's working edge, after the hair popping edge is gone (which takes quite a long while) like no steel I've used personally.

W2 yields very similar results for me. I'm not sure it's quite as tough in a real thin edge but the difference is probably negligible.
 
Frank that M390 makes me drool. For stainless, that would be a tough bird to beat. I do actually have some 1080+ as well. Such a tough choice to make, but I went ahead and cut one out of the 1.2519. The stuff is basically Blue steel, with slightly less carbon. From what I hear, it can support very thin edges and low angles due to it's microstructure being so fine. I do have the fast P50 oil so quench speed is not problem.
 
boy howdy, you can really pick some good questions. HT'd yesterday and have two small knives in 1.2519 that tested at Rc64. and knives of O1 at Rc64-65. If we are talking about a small hunting knife, 4-5" x 1 1/4" x 1/8", of the steels you listed My choice would be O1 at Rc62-63. reasons: easiest to obtain in the exact thickness you need; of the choices it would have the simplest HT; O1 at Rc62-63 would have best combination of hardness/toughness.

dont let the ads fool you, your high performance stainless steels like S35vn & M390 were developed for high performance valves, nozzles, bearings and other moving parts inside turbine engines; grinder blades for making hot dogs or waste water treatment. yes people make knives out of it. they make knives out of HAP40 which was developed for drill bits and end mills. when time for stainless, i would try AEB-L or Niagra 440C. JMHO
 
Actually CPM S30V was designed specifically for cutlery and CPM S35VN was developed to improve toughness and machinability of S30V. Both nice steels. Superpremium - Yes. Belt eaters - Yes. Pricey - yes. End product - sweet!
 
Actually CPM S30V was designed specifically for cutlery and CPM S35VN was developed to improve toughness and machinability of S30V. Both nice steels. Superpremium - Yes. Belt eaters - Yes. Pricey - yes. End product - sweet!

cutlery is mentioned but so is injection and Extrusion Feed Screws and Dies, Non-Return Valve Components, wear components for food and chemical processing. http://www.crucible.com/PDFs\DataSheets2010\dsS30Vv1 2010.pdf
for a knife i would make to sell, AEB-L would be a whole lot easier to shape, grind and heat treat at home. for the size listed, AEB-L would be $1 or $2 more per blade than O1, less than $5 per blade.
 
dont let the ads fool you, your high performance stainless steels like S35vn & M390 were developed for high performance valves, nozzles, bearings and other moving parts inside turbine engines; grinder blades for making hot dogs or waste water treatment. yes people make knives out of it. they make knives out of HAP40 which was developed for drill bits and end mills. when time for stainless, i would try AEB-L or Niagra 440C. JMHO

I have been very happy and so have my customers with the CPM stainless line up starting with CPM-154 CPM-S30V & CPM-S35VN and if they also work for industrial hotdog cutter blades , it's all the better with me!:tt2:

I mean really Scott, What difference does it make what it was designed for? Many things in science & industry are developed for one application and are found to even be better at similar or even different jobs.

I've also had great results with good ole 440C in my Culinary and Hunting knives.

Get the heat treat right on any of these, And you will be very happy. That's not to say that AEB-L isn't a great steel as well and I have a batch of my patterns at the water jet shop now, for a short run.

It just doesn't have to be designed as a cutlery steel to excel as one. So if you want to go domestic stainless? Take a looky here.

http://www.nsm-ny.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&page_id=27

Stuart, if you are after edge retention? The CPM steels Excel in that category
 
Another thing to consider with W1 and 1095 you can do a clay coat to give a hamon line. I'm don't think you need to polish it out but a deep etch really sets a knife apart from the rest.
 
was looking at the whole process. maybe s35vn can make a good blade. AEB-L will make a good blade. we are talking about making knives to sell. just compared prices at Aldo's. s35vn will cost almost 5 times what AEB-L will for the same sized blade. add a more involved heat treat, the fact that s35vn is harder and most costly to machine and grind, business wise AEB-L makes the most sense. so take $175 out of your pocket and buy a piece of AEB-L for $40 then take the change and buy one piece of s35vn the same size.
i thought about W1 and 1095, but you only have a few sources and limited sizes. the forums are full of 1095 horror stories where the steel had issues in manufacture. the HT of these is not as easy or predicable as O1. 52100 would be a close second, but you have added 3 or 4 more steps to the HT to get an end product similar to what you will get with O1.
If you are making knives to sell and make money, you need to get off the popularity train and make hard, cold business decisions. IMHO, O1 and AEB-L make the sense $$$$ wise, which is what it is all about
 
Just for the record, I'm not putting down AEB-L. AWESOME steel - easy to machine and heat treat predictably, takes a scary edge, holds it well, and very reasonably priced. It too was designed for cutting. Just a hugely different cutting task. It would probably be my first choice / recommendation for a chef or sushi knife - just not for a multi-use hunting / camp knife.

Anyhow, the OP was a request about carbon / tool steels. Watching with interest for the voice of experience. :)

Rob!
 
There is also CPM-D2 A particle metal of D2 tool steel and I've used it on hunters & culinary will great results. It has about 4% chromium if I remember correctly so there is a tad of corrosion resistance along with larger carbides that help with edge retention.

Also you will combine your total costs of materials, consumables and time when you set your price.
 
I think what Scott was getting at was something like "Don't let the latest super steels and their carbides and all the talk get you thinking THAT is what you need, when simple AEB-L or 440C will do the job quite well." Nothing wrong with them (latest stainless steels), just that they may be overkill so to speak on certain applications. Cutting up a white tail deer is not very taxing on a knife....unless you cut thru bone, which I don't and advise not to.

I see online Crucible's statements on S30V. I've even read from a Crucible rep that S30V was developed specifically for knives. I remember an article online that S30V was developed specifically for plastic extruding dies and was not that big of a hit. So they put it into knife steel service and BECAME a hit in our community. Due to IT'S success, Crucible developed S35VN as a dedicated knife steel. I know I know.....Crucible says they developed S30V for knives.
If you were to call Crucible right now, or ask them, they'll tell you otherwise. They'll tell you that S30V WAS developed for the cutlery industry. I'm pretty sure it wasn't. But then again...
I REALLY wish I could find that article again. I've looked and can't find it. Maybe it was a dream? ha ha!

I appreciate all of the comments on stainless, but for now it is going to be a carbon steel knife, in particular the 1.2519. If changes need to be made, by golly we'll make em!!!!

You all are great, thanks for all the help.
 
I responded to this topic on another forum, but will add here that the best choice is ALWAYS the steel you have heat treat dialed for.
 
That is a great point. Someone else also mentioned that whatever quench oil you have may influence the choice. Luckily quench oil is not an issue. As far as heat treat dialed in, I can't make any real "claims", because I don't have access to hardness testers or microscopes to really help in a scientific approach to heat treating. As it stands, I rely on established principles and "recipes" so to speak, as a base line to start. Like a cake....it IS going to suck if you deviate much from THE recipe. However, the cake MAY be improved upon by variations in the base line "recipe". All I can say is that my "recipes" turn out cakes that taste great!!! I just need a judging panel to do a blind taste test!!!! Thanks for the wise words, Warren!!!
 
My comments weren't aimed at you :biggrin:. I know you take this seriously. It's just a reminder that often gets missed in these threads that the "best" steel, heat treated sub optimally won't perform as well as simple steels heat treated well. 15n20 mono steel blades taught me that!
 
Warren, maybe I missed something? I didn't take your comment as "aimed at me", my friend! I really appreciated it. Just threw in the other thoughts. You and I see eye to eye! Especially 15n20. What an under-rated steel!
 
the choice of O1 instead of 1.2519 was based on logistics. i can have a sheet of O1 at the door in 3 days or less. 1.2519 would have a 4 to 6 week lead time. just HT'd Monday, i have a blade of 1.2mm O1 and one of 1.5mm 2519, both tested at Rc64-65. not sure if i will temper again or finish as is. both blades are similar shape, so should be able to do some side by side testing.
 
Back
Top