Two questions about kitchen knives

Tony Manifold

Tony Manifold

Well-Known Member
I want to start doing some kitchen knives. I think there is a bit of a market for them and I have a brother who is a chef who could test/display them for me. My questions are as follows.

If I want to use 10xx steel should I use 1084 or 1095? Why?

Also what is a good knife to start with? Chef's/gyuto knife, Petty, santoku, etc?

Thanks
 
Tony,
I love making Culinary knives, First, I live by the ocean and became a mostly stainless devotee very quickly when I started knife making. If you go stainless? I suggest CPM-154 or even 440C to get rolling.

Ive made 2 1/2" paring up to 13" japanese Yanagi draw slicers. start in the middle. Try a nice 6-8 Euro chef or a 5-7" Santuko to get started. The commercial 8' chef knife is still the biggest seller in the country. japanese santukos and others are gaining.

Women almost always like shorter, lighter & less aggressive looking knives, the Santuko is very popular with the ladies.

If your brother is a chef, ask him what he wants and build one for him? Feel free to ask me any questions about culinary knives, if I can, I will gladly help.
 
Tony,

You can't get better help than Laurence. I have my first true kitchen knife in the making nearly ready for heat treat, a 440c Santuko for the wife. Laurence is the culinary knife go to man. JMHO

G
 
Yep, it does seem the kitchen knives are most popular and easiest sold. I would suggest Sandvik steels, perhaps the 12C28 is good, and fairly easy to HT, and "can" be done in a gas forge WITH a muffler pipe and thermocouple inserted inside the muffler pipe. Sandvik steels only require around 1900ºF to 1950ºF for 5 minutes or so and can be air tempered. I plate quench, but all you have to do is get steel below 1100ºF in 2 minutes (air cooling should work). Even this primitive method will produce a very decent blade, temperature control electric oven will certainly be better.

Good luck, Ken H>
 
Either 10xx steel should work fine for a kitchen knife, as long as it's wiped clean and perhaps given a light coat of food grade oil after use. You may even think about forcing a patina, though if you're cutting food, you'll develop one quickly enough. Which one I would pick would be based on my method of heat treat and the equipment available. I have an oven and parks 50, so I use 1095 a lot.

Personally, I'd start out with something simple, like a small paring knife.

Start with thin stock, and take the primary bevel to about .005" or .010".
 
I'll have it professionally treated so that's not a problem. I will go try stainless eventually but a 10 series steel has about half the learning cost lol.

Thanks for the tips. Laurence, I will definitely be hitting you up for advice as I go.
 
All the knives in my knife block are carbon steel and I'm willing to do what it takes to keep them in shape and don't get upset with them developing a patina. However it seems like most people do. If you are going to have someone heat treat the blades then I suggest that you take Laurence's advice and try something like 440C. They will be the stainless steel that most people seem to look for in kitchen knives and you will have an easier time finding someone to heat treat them for you. It's sometimes difficult to find a professional heat treater who will work with carbon steels. Most want to work with an air quenching steel.

Doug
 
Good thread! I don't get to use the knives I make (hunters) nearly enough so I've been thinking of kitchen knives also.
 
for a first kitchen knife, i would do a nakiri, a basic rectangular blade. IMHO, a kitchen knife is function before form. since you are sending it out, I suggest a piece of 3/32" x 2"x 18" O1 from Sheffield, England (on Amazon less than $20). 5"x2" blade, start with a 5" x 1" tang. Have the HT folks make the blade Rc62-63. I would do a flat/Scandi grind with total angle around 15 degrees. Since this is a test mule, I would use plain oak or maple for the handle. Now the fun. when blade comes back from HT, grind till you have a reasonable edge, then tape it up. i like a handle you dont notice. we are in the realm of touchy-feely, soft curves, gentle transitions. does the handle slip into the sweet spot of your hand? is the blade handle balance such that the knife is part of my hand? when cutting are my knuckles clear of cutting board? i suggested a long tang so you can shorten it if you need. handle pins can help with balance. when happy with handle, a couple coats of poly and off you go. take edge to razor and head for the kitchen.
 
I had mine done at RC 60-61 at Paul Bos "Buck Knives" heat treat. What kind of 'kitchen Knife" are you planning? If it's a euro/Americana stly I would go 58-59 RC if its a Japanese style Nakari or Santuko I would go RC 60-61 ...
 
When I think kitchen knives I think thin,hard, and shiny. The shiny part is a recent change in thought. We have a sandwich counter in our store so I always have 4-6 knives laying around. The gals making sandwiches will ALWAYS go for shiny. I used to think they all had a raccoon gene or something. It slowly dawned on me that they perceive patina on a blade as "dirty". Since they can never get it "clean" they grab the shiny blade. I don't even put out carbon steel knives any more. The stain free high carbon dexter russels are a crowd pleaser.

So if I were selling to home chefs (predominately women) either stainless or real shiny steel(D2 or similar?). Professional chefs probably have enough savvy to choose sharp over shiny. One of the realities of business is that unless you have the time and financial bandwidth to educate the public you will have to utilize popular materials over ideal materials. It's probably pretty much that way in any trade. I can't tell you how weary I got reading "CNC Billet machined" on any aluminum product for years.(motorcycle parts, car parts, bicycle parts, etc.) Unless it's forged or cast it will be machined from billet. But to constantly force feed that to the public as better? Only prettier, usually. Since humans have eyeballs shiny is more important than it should be....sigh. Thankfully there are a lot of good stainless steels available.
 
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Smallshop said:
When I think kitchen knives I think thin,hard, and shiny. The shiny part is a recent change in thought. We have a sandwich counter in our store so I always have 4-6 knives laying around. The gals making sandwiches will ALWAYS go for shiny. I used to think they all had a raccoon gene or something. It slowly dawned on me that they perceive patina on a blade as "dirty". Since they can never get it "clean" they grab the shiny blade. I don't even put out carbon steel knives any more. The stain free high carbon dexter russels are a crowd pleaser.

So if I were selling to home chefs (predominately women) either stainless or real shiny steel(D2 or similar?). Professional chefs probably have enough savvy to choose sharp over shiny. One of the realities of business is that unless you have the time and financial bandwidth to educate the public you will have to utilize popular materials over ideal materials.
Click to expand...

i just tell my lady customers it is a knife like your grandma would have. they learned at an early age, dont use grandma's knife without asking and never put it in the sink or a dish pan or a dish washer. make a knife that you cant get from dexter russel or shun or ????
 
Smallshop,
The debate over which steel to use, carbon vs Stainless will rage for ever. lol.
I do agree with your observation about the gals and most guys going for shiny there is more than meets the eye going on there. I have found spotty scientific evidence of it but i truly think that the Chromium in stainless also has some anti-microbial properties to it "Would make a great episode of Myth Busters" and in some states, like where I live in California you MUST use stainless steel cutlery in a commercial kitchen. Along with that I find quality stainless steel holds an edge longer than a like content carbon steel, so for jane public that doesn't know how to sharpen it's a better choice on the edge too! I had one carbon blade Japanese Suji knife come in just this last Friday that was so heavy in"Patina" That I charged extra on the recon job because I know when they come in that bad they are going to really STINK Phew! even through my respirator as i buff or scotchbrite off the crud! Its impossible to educate the masses when they have "shiny" also to chose from and they are late for a nail appointment.

Last one of my personal observations is that most guys than prefer carbon steel blades are sharpening junkies and can't wait for the edge to dull even slightly on that beautifully hamoned carbon steel blade so the can get out the stones and touch that edge right up! lol
 
Laurence, you are so right on the prefer carbon steel for sharpening though process. I think a lot of folks think of stainless steel as "hard to sharpen" and "doesn't get as sharp" - with quality SS, this is NOT an issue, they sharpen just fine, and will get just as sharp as a carbon steel, and except for speciality carbon steels, quality SS will probably hold an edge longer.

Ken
 
" Its impossible to educate the masses when they have "shiny" also to chose from and they are late for a nail appointment."

did you mean masses or missus?:biggrin:


Ken, what would your best recommendation be for kitchen knife steel?
 
You asking "ME" what would be best kitchen steel? There are so many folks on here that have so much more experience and knowledge than me I would NOT attempt to recommend a steel. I would LOVE to hear other folks comment on Sandvik's 14C28 for kitchen knife (or other Sandvik steels). I've sorta "settled" on the Sandvik steels because they "seem" to be good, they sure do sharpen so easy and the wife and friends think they stay sharp a long time.

AND - Sandvik is fairly easy HT'd with only a 5 minute soak time, and plate quench - air quench would work. Not sure if it's plate quenching or a facet of the steel, but I've not had much problem at all with warping during quench.

Ken H>
 
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