Tools and steel

M

malignity

Well-Known Member
I may be posting in the wrong forum, but maybe you guys know what I'm talking about.

When I literally knew absolutely nothing about knife making (which I still have retained most of) I came across a picture chart of various hand tools and what kind of steel they were typically made from.

The problem is, I don't know if this chart was here, was on the bladeforum, or brittish blades, etc.

It had like a picture of a file, and said "O1 tool steel" (just an example, I'm not sure the makeup, and know that all new files are often case hardened mild steel) and showed punches and had it "L6 tool steel", a wrench, etc. Obviously I know this is not an absolute, but I thought it was a pretty cool reference.

I didn't think to save it, and for the life of me, I cannot find this picture ANYWHERE. I've tried and tried, and my googlefu is inadequate I guess.

The reason I ask this is because my wife is an ebay antiques dealer, and we are constantly getting old tools, etc. Whatever doesn't sell goes to the scrap yard at $0.08lb. Once I get my forge, to be able to utilize some of that would be fantastic.

Does anyone have this chart?
 
MANY years ago, charts of that nature were pretty relevant.... but about 20 years ago, things changed dramatically. There was a time when industry/engineers/designers would specify that a given item/tool be made of a specific steel type. All of that changed with the advent of "Spec Manufacturing". In order to cut production costs, nearly all companies these days specify the function of a given tool, the desired life span, and produce items from the cheapest material available....what that means is that the exact same tool, from the exact same company, could be any number of different steel types. Files are a very good example..... prior to Spec Manufacturing, most were made of high carbon steels....now a days most files are case hardened. Long story short....this is why you see folks on the forums recommending new, known steel(s). Most of the time a person uses up a lot of time, effort, and materials, trying to figure out IF a knife can be made from "scrap"....when in reality they would have been FAR ahead, had they just purchased new, known steel.

OK, all that being said, if its something a person wants to do, I say go for it. It does provide practical experience..... but be prepared for a lot of wasted time and effort, and also be aware that even when you do find an item that seems to make a "good" blade...... its likely that the next item of the same type will not.
 
I understand completely. I guess this wouldn't be a good reference for most, just for some. As I mentioned, my wife is an antiques dealer, so finding 50+ year old files and other various tools on 150 year old farm houses is something I'm used to coming across. I've started collecting them and have a good collection for knife making. I'm just wondering what else I could look out for that would be useful.

Then again, I see your point in not knowing exactly what you're working with. Just because it's not case hardened and it's high carbon steel, doesn't necessarily mean it's 1095, or O-1 tool steel, etc.

I suppose a file could be made from something like L6, and I wouldn't be the wiser. Both great knife steels in their own right, but probably differing tempering qualities (I don't know enough about tempering to know, just using that as an example.)
 
The only brand of file I would trust is the Nicholson Black Diamond.... those are the ONLY files that I am sure are still made totally from high carbon steel. (I had a few tested and they come out with the same chemisty as 1095, with the exception of having 1.10-1.27 carbon)

Not long ago I had a local farrier in my shop who wanted to make some knives out of what he call "really old" files. I tried to talk him out of it, but he was "sure" they were "high carbon" steel. Well, long story short, after he worked all day on two blades, he wanted me to show him how to heat treat them...... neither would harden...not even in water. The poor guy was livid. :) After that we tried breaking a few of those "20 year old" files....none would break....they just bent to 90. Most were Simmons brand, and as it turned out, they were all case hardened.
 
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Ed, have you ever heard of farriers rasps of long ago ( talking pre 50's-60's & older here) being made from W-2 or something akin to W-2? Can't recall the source for that now but heard that many years ago. My dad had one or two around and I intended to check one out but they disappeared before I had a chance.

BTW, fully agree about Nicholson files, best ones I have found and use myself in aviation metal working.
 
hi, not able to find chart. you can make some assumptions. older files, pre 1970, are high carbon steel similar to W1. old wood chisels, unless steel type is shown, O1, O7, 1.2210 if european. cold chisels for metal work S5 or S7. hand plane blades O1 or A2. hand saws 80crv2, L6, 15N20.
with the exception of S5&7 and A2, the rest heat treat similar. heat to 1500F, soak for 10min, quench in fast oil. temper at 375F for an hour, cold water quench, 375F for an hour. you should end up with Rc61-63 hardness.
the next time you have a pile of leftovers, send me a PM before calling the scrap man.
 
I have probably around 50 old American made cold chisels. Good to hear that some may be S5 or S7. I'm going to air quench the ones I want to make into drifts and other hot work tools to see if they harden. Thanks for that info.
 
Yep! That's very similar to the charts I used to keep around the shops..... until about 1990 or so...thats when I started noticing that charts of that type were no longer accurate. If I remember correctly, it was in 2009 that I had a several of the items from those type of charts tested..... most of the samples I sent in were so wierd that they were not identifiable to the lab that did the testing for me. Thats what sent me on the search to find out what was going on... and thats when I discovered the "spec manufacturing" thing.
 
I noticed the other day that the harbor freight files are claimed as high carbon steel. I ALMOST took a picture just because I was looking at files. I don't think I'd be brave enough to make a knife out of a harbor freight file, even though I do love most of their stuff. (Commence cringing)

I've got a HUGE stack of files now that I've been buying at garage sale and estate sales, all appearing to be old.

I guess I'll need to see if they're case hardened or high carbon, but I'm not exactly sure how to do that. My dad mentioned just cutting into one and testing the inside to see if it's mild steel, but I'm not exactly sure there's a good way to go about doing that.

I've also got a 36" antique saw blade, etc that I figured would be serviceable, a few old crowbars, railroad spikes, tire irons, etc. Maybe all this stuff is junk, I don't know.
 
"Old" stuff certainly isn't bad.....the problem is having enough of it. It usually takes 2-3 blades worth to figure out IF its any good for knives, and it could take several to figure out a heat treat for it......by that time you've usually gone through what you have.....the problem with the "spec manufacturing" is that even if you have the exact same item (like a crowbar or tire iron), you just can't assume that one is made of the same thing the last one was....so then you have to start the whole process all over again.

RR spikes are at best a novelty item. Although you've likely heard or read that if a spike has "HC" on it, its "high carbon".....that's true, but it refers to it being "high carbon" FOR A RR SPIKE. Meaning that the spikes with "HC" on them MIGHT be .040-.045 carbon content....not enough to produce a usable blade.

The whole gist of me appealing to folks to use new, known steel is that it just makes your knifemaking time more productive and worlds simpler then if you have to reinvent the wheel each time you start a blade using scrap steels.
 
'Free' steel or 'cheap' steel is very seldom free or cheap. How much gasoline did you burn driving around and gathering it up? How much propane or electricity did you use getting it flat, smooth and usable for a knife? How much time did you spend doing this? Is your time worth anything to you?

These are questions that factor in. And in the end what kind of knife do you have and do you know that you got the most out of your steel? Or even that you have a good knife for that matter?

48" of good, tough, reliable, ready to work 1084 steel with known heat treat data, known performance expectations and repeatable results costs about $22. That's quite a few knives.

Just sayin'.
 
Ok just a fellow penny pinching knifemakers .02, I was given a 5 gal bucket full of old planer blades by my grandfather to make knoves out of like he did. Working them cold meaning grind a pass and quench in my water bucket, repeat process till a blade is ground out. Free blade steel and make a dang fine skinning blade, hold an edge for a long while. Sounds perfect right? The two gents who commented just before me lent me their experience and let me know it could be done but being a hobbyist and a penny pincher look at the time to grind a blade out , the cost of all the belts and paper I use to make a blade all combined would be the time ot would take to cut, profile, grind, and ht a blade of 1080 steel. Using 5 of my 1x42 belt sander belts @1.70 per belt to make one blade to give away to a buddy kinda adds up after the 2nd blade.
 
I guess that makes sense. I suppose I had just better use them for their intended purpose as files then toss them into the scrap bin once done. Unless of course they're Nicholson's... I doubt I'd be that lucky though.

I wish I would have researched this before I started buying junk. Got about 2 5 gallon buckets full. Lol.

Seemed like a good idea at the time!
 
I just discussed this with my dad (he's a machinist on the verge of retirement) and told him about the pediment I was in, and how I can't guarantee the type of steel, and that something is O1, L6, etc."

His response was "O1? I've got tons of that at the shop. Let me see what I can get you." He said it's a special machinists O1, but I don't know exactly what he means.

So I guess I have a potential "supplier" for now until he retires. I'm hoping its a relatively easy steel to work with and start with.
 
I see there is a slight potential for some good known steel for knife making.
On the topic of the files, if you want to try and use them as practice materials and mabbe be lucky and have it turn out. That was my rationality for using the planer blades, an a bit of nostalgia. In the end all we can do is offer our experiences to you and let you make your own decision in the end.
It is a hobby to start an will spiral into an obsession or a trade. Lol
 
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I checked over my files. I've got a handful of Nicholson (not sure if black diamond or not), some that appear to say Neilson? (Maybe it's Nicholson too, hard to tell) an Atkins Silver Steel, a ton of Lenox (all junk from what I understand), a Simonds, Heller, and something that starts with Cas. Maybe Case hardened? Ha!


Before I completely give up the idea of any scrap steel being used in knife making, is there anything that is consistently the same steel these days; even if it needs to be forged? Railroad track maybe?

I'm just trying to figure out if ANY scrap can be used as steel, or if I should just give up the notion all together. I guess the nostalgia in me is really strong. I love to repurpose items that have served other purposes prior. As a homesteader, that's pretty much what I do. My old snow plow is made from bed frames and a hot water tank for example. Maybe this is stuff that would shine in a canister damascus project years down the road once I kind of learn what I'm doing a little more -- If I ever learn what I'm doing. Lol
 
I don't know if this helps, but for my current and more or less first knife project I was asked by a good friend to make a knife specifically out of a old file for him, in a sort of folk art way. I told him off the bat that the knife is only going to be as good as the steel it's made out of and he basically told me "you got this". Unknown metallurgy drove me nuts, so I did some research, and after reading for a LONG while on the net about heat treating information from people like Kevin Cashen, Ed Fowler, Ed Caffery here, and many others I sort of came up with a plan. If I am totally wrong here I hope some folks jump in.
I would sort all your files into piles based on brand, and then based on whether they are farriers rasps or metal files, and then look at the font on the name and the logo and see if they are from different time periods, so at the end you have a bunch of piles of files with theoretically matched metallurgy. Take one of the files from the biggest pile and cut some 1 or 2 inch wide chunks off it. Heat it up to non-magnetic and quench one in oil, and one in water. Then take the sample to the anvil and strike it over the edge of the anvil. If it shatters you hit paydirt, if it just folds over your quenching in the wrong medium, IE the quench time is wrong. You can push the temperature/soak time a little bit as well to help with the phase transformation. I ended up making up a gallon of the "super quench" which is water, salt, and liquid soap, and with the rasp I had I managed enough hardness to shatter when hit. The next step once you get it hard is then trying to temper it, which again will be a deal where you start at a low temperature, say, 200 and let it sit for 2 hours and then check its hardness. This whole process is totally witchcraft, as the process will rarely be repeatable and relies on winning the variable lottery more than real heat treat science. You could also add the "spark test" in at any point as well to determine carbon content.


As far as special machinists O-1 he probably means precision ground tool steel, like the materials that Starrett sells. This will work well for making knives if you get some for a reasonable price. If I were looking for other scrap to be able to make repeatable items out of I would probably look at ball bearings, which to my knowledge are 99% of the time made out of 52100 steel.
 
Just for clarity sake, non magnetic is ~ 1414°f. High carbon steel should be at 1475°f-1500°f in order to harden properly. So non magnetic is not hot enough. If using your eye, you'll need to go a "shade or two past non magnetic", to hit 1500°f. Also, water is not a good quench medium. If all you are doing is testing samples, then that's perfectly OK. If a knife needs a fast quench, a fast oil should be used, and canola oil warmed to 130°f is getting close to a "fast" oil. Any time that a steel is so shallow hardening that even a fast oil like P50 won't harden it, use a brine solution, never straight water. Filtered or distilled, 10% salt solution.

Tempering should start at the low end of around 300°f maybe 325°f, for max usable hardness, and then work up from there.

If your dad is a machinist, he may indeed have a nice supply of PG O1!!! Lucky you! O1 is indeed a great, easy steel to work with. Heat treating is easy too, but to get the most potential that the alloying in O1 offers, you need tight temp control, as O1 needs a good 20 minutes soak at around 1500°f, and O1 makes an EXCELLENT knife steel.

Many files are indeed case hardened. No joy there. Lastly, I have to disagree with the statement that heat treating is totally witchcraft, as the process is VERY repeatable, obviously. When it DOES become a bit of voodoo, is when you're trying to harden unknown steel properly. Then you might as well do a few new moon rituals.
 
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samuraistuart said:
Lastly, I have to disagree with the statement that heat treating is totally witchcraft, as the process is VERY repeatable, obviously. When it DOES become a bit of voodoo, is when you're trying to harden unknown steel properly. Then you might as well do a few new moon rituals.
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That's the point I was trying to make. With the unknown metals the OP has, and the tools available to him hes in the realm of witchcraft. It is totally different than if he was using a known alloy, had a heat treat oven, ect. Even moving from one file to a similar one could create different results.

Heated Brine is totally better for heat treating than water, but for testing the samples I used water just to try to see what the fastest transformation would do. In the end I used that "super quench" (heated Brine-ish solution) which I would never even begin to think of using on real high carbon steel, but it worked decent for the rasp I had. If the sample does not harden in a fast oil to begin with, its probably better just to move on to another file.
 
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