Persian Dagger done finally!

Patrice Lemée

Well-Known Member
Well there are a few more things I had planned on doing and some aspects I am not happy with but, I do this mostly for fun and it was not much fun anymore. I have to be realistic with my skill level too. Don't get me wrong, overall I am pleased and I will do another that's for sure. But this one is done! Tomorrow I'll try and get better pics if the sunshine cooperates. This is a take-down so I'll also get a pic of it in pieces. Specs are:

Blade length: 8 3/4” OAL: 14 3/4”
Grind: Hollow
Steel: 1075/1080
Handle: Bloodwood
Guard: Mild steel (1018) blued
Fittings and spacers: Brass, Mild steel (1018) blued and stainless steel.

persian_dagger_01.jpg


Thanks for looking!
 
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Very nice! The subtle hamon is very striking and the guard is OUTSTANDING.
 
I bet the last couple inches on the tip were a blast to grind and keep the center spine equal.
Nice work all around Patrice. This one shows some skill.

Rudy
 
WOW! I'm sitting here with my eyes bugged out and my mouth hanging open but I can still type, just barely. That is amazing! I cant even imagin trying to grind one of those, I have evough trouble grinding a straight dagger grind.
Patrice, your humility impresses me as much as your knifemaking skills. Keep up the great work!
 
That knife rocks!! If there is anything wrong with it it might be that the blade is a little too fine, but dang, that's a great looking blade.

Doug Lester
 
Thanks for the compliments guys. I really appreciate it.:eek::eek::eek:
I will post more detailed pictures tomorrow, especially of the different flaws, as well as some description of the few things I learned. And an exploded pic too of course.
 
Patrice you have really kick some dog butt on that one. As some one posted earlier the grinds on the curve near the tip must have been really hard . excellent work . kellyw
 
As promise here are a few close-up pics of the different parts of the knife as well as an exploded view. I'll try do describe what is wrong in each (some things are obvious) and how I think I will approach the problem the next time. I am wordy so this may be quite long. ;)

First is the exploded view. 19 pieces in all. 2 more if you count the pins in the brass “flowers” which are a press fit. The connecting screw is attached to the tang with a pin. I will use a small screw the next time. I think I lost 4 of those in all while taking it apart. :( I will also have a thicker tang so that I can bevel the end so that the screw head is the same thickness. As it stands I need to drill round slot for it to pass through the wooden part of the handle.

persian_exploded_view.jpg


Next is one of the views of the guard. As you can see, 2 things are wrong. The fit of the little decoration (no idea how to call it) is not the best and the sides are open. I would have liked it to enclose the blade but that would require brazing and skills that are more jewelry oriented that I don't posses yet. I'd love to take a course or 2 of basic jewelry making. I am sure it would help. You can also see the gap between handle, spacer, and guard. The fit is good, it is just a problem with the retaining nut on the handle which I'll describe later.

persian_guard_fit.jpg


Another view of the guard. In this one you can see 2 things. Well one may be a little harder. One of the brass nuts is off centered a smudge and it ends up lower not centered and lower than the other. See they are made of one piece and I don't know how to cut threads on the lathe yet. So I used dies and I always end up with crooked threads even if I try using the drill press or mill or lathe for alignment. Gotta learn to cut threads on the old SB9. The other flaw is with the guard shaping. As you can see the recessed carving could be cleaner. That is something that I could and probably will correct as it doesn't involve redoing something. I was just out of steam for the whole project. :( As you can see, the whole guard is also not symmetrical. As I found out, also by looking at a recent WIP by Steve Culvert (thanks by the way :thumbup:), metal carving need precise layout. “Winging it”, which is what I did here, just doesn't cut it, no pun intended.

persian_guard_fit2.jpg


While I am on the subject, I bought a small chuck for one of my Dremels. Had I known these existed I would have outfitted all the Dremels a long time ago. Cheap (20$) and so much faster and easier than the darn key thing.

dremel_chuck.jpg


Next is a pics someone requested of the “pommel” (don't know how to call it) decorations. These turned out ok. I just will do a little more carving/engraving/details next time.

persian_pommel.jpg


Next pic will be disappointing for many that thought that I had come up with an ingenious way of securing the take down. (Sorry Bruce :( And yes you were right, simple just doesn't seem to cut it anymore sadly. :() I had a few ideas in mind but as I said before, I just ran out of steam. :( It is simply a tapered insert. And the taper is not pronounced enough, hence my reluctance of tightening it too much and the earlier problem about the tight fit of the handle/spacer/guard. Oh well...

persian_take_down_nut.jpg


Last thing I wanted to talk about was the grind. I did this on a “stock” 10” KMG wheel. As you can imagine it doesn't work for every part of the grind as the geometry varies in width and curvature. I used the “corner” of the wheel for the upper inside part. I put a pic to try and illustrate better. I don't know how to explain it. I would just end up writing a page long essay that would leave more questions than answers.

KMG_wheel_side.jpg


One thing I can say it that doing this with a hollow grind was easier than a flat grind. You guys surely know this but once you establish the “groove” with a hollow grind, it make sit easier to move it up until you meet your middle line. You can actually feel the wheel in the groove helping to locate where you are. With a flat grind you can't, well “I” can't anyway.
This brings me to another tip that may help. There is no way I can do a grind this complex in full “pulls” across the whole blade like I usually do. Once the basic groove was established, well away from the center line, I worked on small sections about the width of the wheel starting at the ricasso. Once the first section is moved a little closer to the center line you move on to the next using the first one as a starting point and guide and so on. Go all the way to the tip in steps like this and start back at the ricasso until you've moved you grind to the center line. If you go over the line a little you can cheat by carefully using the flat platen to grind a little flat back to center and starting again. Of course this is just for minor corrections or it will throw the whole grind out of whack.
Finally as you can imagine, this is not a true hollow grind. As you move up the blade the width of the blade is so small that it becomes almost a flat grind because of the large diameter of the wheel. I guess it would be possible to reduce wheel diameter as you go to keep it a hollow grind but the last one would have to be a very small diameter wheel and blending all this smoothly is a sure way to end up in a padded room with a straight-jacket. ;)

Finally I'd like to explain why I point out the flaws. I point them out because I don't want to misrepresent myself. In spite of the digital limitations of this media I consider all of you like friends, many good ones. Hiding even small things would feel the same as lying straight to your face. I am also concerned by aspiring knifemakers seeing my progression as more/faster than it actually is and feeling discouraged by their own progress not measuring. I don't know if that makes sense.

Don't hesitate if you have questions, or simply want to tell me to shut up. ;)
 
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Patricee, for what it is the gaps are pretty small and I think your right some of that would go away if you could tighten the retaining screw up. You might change the screw up some and make like an slightly threaded ivory plug that covers it or just doll up the screw head.

But, I really don't think the problems are that great or much of a distraction. I think this has been a huge jump for you and a real display of where you are capable of going and that is a long ways.

Still gets an excellent from me. Jim
 
Thanks for the good words Jim. That plug idea is great. I did not think of that. I'll keep it in mind if I revisit this one and surely for the next one. Thanks.
 
Patrice when I saw this knife I was and still am drooling and thinking thats way out of my grasp to attempt something like that. But once I saw the exploded picture of pieces im like I think I might be able to do that. Maybee not nearly as good but youve inspired me to try something different. Can you explain how the knife attaches to the handle . I see the screw at the back and the small pin . Fill me in thanks kellyw
 
Hellgap, sorry for the late reply. You don't know how happy I am that this is inspiring you to try your hand at take-downs. :thumbup:
People seem to think that they are very difficult to make. I am not saying they are easy by any means. You need a very good fit and alignment pins are needed in just about everything. But contrary to something that is all glued together, here you have the luxury to work on individual pieces without having to worry about messing up the adjacent piece. Well it may be an oversimplification of the whole thing but you get the idea.

The hole in the tang is for the screw which has a slotted head (which is drilled for the small pin). Maybe somebody with better grasp of the written word/English can explain it better. This makes the screw pivots and is very helpful with more curved handles. Some people use chain or a more permanent way to attach the screw but this way lets you fiddle a little more with placement, especially to the pommel/nut at then end. In this one, the pommel and nut is replaced by the long pin you see (is has the female threads) which has a taper to tighten in the wooden handle. Far from perfect and something I need o work on for the next. I would highly suggest starting with a more conventional pommel and nut type setup.

I hope I did not just confuse you more. :(
 
Pat,

WOW !!! Fantastic, Perfect, Awesome etc. etc. etc.

NOT because it is extremely complex AND without flaw ! Obviously there are flaws which you've done a great job of pointing out but lets see things for what they are-

Your flaws are not due to laziness, lack of skill, or lack of ability. These would things would be difficult to overcome at best. I believe all the flaws you pointed out are due only to lack of experience with the required technique to accomplish your vision. The lack of that needed experience has been lessened considerably by the fact that you had an extremely complex vision, developed a plan of attack, and went for it giving your best effort along the way.

It's very difficult to grasp the obsticles and problems you'll encounter with new techniques. School of hard knocks IS a great teacher though and doing a complete self assesment of what you wanted, what you did, and the result you got WILL lead to quick progress and a shortened learning curve for the next time around. Your threaded quillions are a prime example of how ,IMHO, your doing everything you can to improve.
You tried and completed it
You recognized the problem with the end result
You've identified a future method that will give an improved result

The next step is to take that plunge and learn to cut threads with your lathe !

Going beyond self assesment is sharing your work with others and getting outside input. You've got no problems there, and will also mention that your pics are very good which will help others to help you.

Your honesty and integrity shows in your posts Pat so don't worry about that stuff. Just keep doing what your doing buddy !

GREAT KNIFE !

-Josh
 
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