Hidden tang design help.

K

Kev

Well-Known Member
I’ve been working on a couple hidden tang designs and have ran into a few problems consistently, that leads me to believe that I’m either doing things out of order, or prioritizing the wrong thing.
First is there a good width for the tang to be where it meets the ricasso? Like a ratio to the width of the ricasso?
Second should the tang be centered in the ricasso, or offset? I’ve been running into issues with it being to close to the bottom of the handle.
Third when your drawing/designing do you draw in the tang prior to drawing the handle or after?
 
I like to have the hidden tang as wide as possible at the ricasso with a small step at the start of the bolster/handle so the strength is not compromised and taper it steeply for 1/2 to 3/4 inch then gradual to the end of the tang. I like to have the tang centered in the handle and will draw the tang after the handle is drawn (if this is on paper unless I am working within the constraints of a particular piece of steel and then a bit of heat and a hammer can alter things to suit.
 
Kev said:
I’ve been working on a couple hidden tang designs and have ran into a few problems consistently, that leads me to believe that I’m either doing things out of order, or prioritizing the wrong thing.
First is there a good width for the tang to be where it meets the ricasso? Like a ratio to the width of the ricasso?
Second should the tang be centered in the ricasso, or offset? I’ve been running into issues with it being to close to the bottom of the handle.
Third when your drawing/designing do you draw in the tang prior to drawing the handle or after?
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I have been dealing with the EXACT same issues.
 
Your blade and handle should be in nice alignment/proportion to each other and have nice flow. The tang is hidden and should be wherever it needs to be to accommodate that and not be too close to any edge of your handle.
 
Traditional Scandinavian knives are all or mostly stick tang, and the tang is centered on the blade.
However, this is a result of the handle usually being straight with a slight belly and often consisting of more than one material or piece.
So the straight tang goes at least into the last piece, often all the way through.

In Australia (*where I live*) the stick tang blades generally have much wider tangs, making a stronger construction. This may be because the blades are often longer (6" or more as compared to the Scandinavian 3-4"), wider and often with the handle curving slightly down.

Brisa Farmer 95, carbon steel in traditional stick tang style (but with hole for optional handle pin, something Scandinavian blades usually do not have)

Brisa-Farmer Carbon-95-knife-blade-creativeman.com.au.jpg

could not find a good photo sorry but this is an example of a knife by Steve Filicietti showing the longer blade, try to imagine the thicker stick tang :)
20638081_1366697440092885_9207819645623903954_n.jpg
 
I think people have a tendancy to overemphasize the need for a robust tang. Unless you are seriously abusing a knife, how on earth are you going to snap the handle off?

Of course a knife should be built to handle the intended use and then some. But I also believe that people underestimate the strength of steel.

A good test would be to take a typical screwdriver and see what it takes to snap the shank anywhere near the handle. I have my doubts it can be done without resorting to a vise and a cheater bar, or big hammer. Then compare the thickness of that screwdriver shank to your knife’s tang.

I don’t mean to come across as negative. Quite the opposite. I’m saying that of all the possible failure points on a knife the tang’s thickness probably isn’t that big of a concern. Now imagine that tang is epoxied into a monolithic handle, or even under tension with a cap nut.

Now, admittedly I build knives for slicing performance. If someone’s building a Rambo style zombie apocalypse camp chopper then take my opinion with a grain of salt.
 
John Wilson said:
I think people have a tendancy to overemphasize the need for a robust tang. Unless you are seriously abusing a knife, how on earth are you going to snap the handle off?
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I fully agree with that John. I guess my comment on the width of the tang at the start of the handle for the hidden tang knife was more in connection to any possible twisting motion that might (eventually) compromise the handle tang bonding.
 
Von Gruff said:
I fully agree with that John. I guess my comment on the width of the tang at the start of the handle for the hidden tang knife was more in connection to any possible twisting motion that might (eventually) compromise the handle tang bonding.
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Oh I certainly agree with you. There are definitely advantages to what you say. My only point is that breaking the tang is something we tend to be unduly worried about.
 
The talk about how strong knives should be grows increasingly more ridiculous by the day. Knives are depicted as tools that should be able to chop down trees, hack through chain-link fence, stab through car doors, chop bricks in half, hack through industrial steel nuts and bolts........you know......all the standard day to day knife stuff.

Someday, a member of the human race will have to invent a brand new tool.....something unheard of......something light and thin and wickedly sharp and comfortable to hold.....its sole purpose: to slice soft materials that can't be opened or torn with human hands.
 
J. Doyle said:
The talk about how strong knives should be grows increasingly more ridiculous by the day. Knives are depicted as tools that should be able to chop down trees, hack through chain-link fence, stab through car doors, chop bricks in half, hack through industrial steel nuts and bolts........you know......all the standard day to day knife stuff.

Someday, a member of the human race will have to invent a brand new tool.....something unheard of......something light and thin and wickedly sharp and comfortable to hold.....its sole purpose: to slice soft materials that can't be opened or torn with human hands.
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amen
 
I’m not so much concerned with strength necessarily, I mean I am, but that was not the point of the original post.
I guess I’m looking for “theory” behind tang placement and design as it applies to the handle. As I said before I’m having issues with the tang not working with the handle. I realize that fixing that is as easy as simply making the tag fit within the handle? But are there things to consider where the design of the tang places restrictions on the handle shape due to function?
Overall I’m just trying to get a better feel fit the give and take of overall knife design. It seems like everything in this pursuit is a compromise of some sort, why should design for form and function be any different.
 
The key point was made by John Doyle. Draw the knife and fit the tang in there wherever it goes. The only real “watch out” is to try to make at least one side of the tang straight. After all, you have to be able to drill a hole for it.
 
J. Doyle said:
The talk about how strong knives should be grows increasingly more ridiculous by the day. Knives are depicted as tools that should be able to chop down trees, hack through chain-link fence, stab through car doors, chop bricks in half, hack through industrial steel nuts and bolts........you know......all the standard day to day knife stuff.

Someday, a member of the human race will have to invent a brand new tool.....something unheard of......something light and thin and wickedly sharp and comfortable to hold.....its sole purpose: to slice soft materials that can't be opened or torn with human hands.
Click to expand...

This should be framed and hung on my wall...i get discouraged by the testosterone crowd (AKA knife magazine writers) that are akin to the gun writers of old...before we knew it we had to hunt with bazookas....

I saw a pic of one writer recently who was holding a knife he was reviewing and had such a death grip on it in the photo that his hand was pink and white contrast from oversqueezing...sheesh...this is the expert gonna review the clean trim lil slicer you labored over to get the perfect design...sigh. When he snaps it trying to open a can of peaches you'll be the one to blame...

My dad taught us how to handle a knife...I have NEVER broken a blade (except testing HT on my own blades...) in proper usage...he'd a tanned my hide for ruining a good knife...even a good cheap knife.
 
I have never broken a knife either. And I don’t intend to under normal use. I have no disillusion that the knife I make with replace a plasma cutter and a front end loader, at the same time. I just want to make a really really good knife.
 
Smallshop said:
This should be framed and hung on my wall...i get discouraged by the testosterone crowd (AKA knife magazine writers) that are akin to the gun writers of old...before we knew it we had to hunt with bazookas....

I saw a pic of one writer recently who was holding a knife he was reviewing and had such a death grip on it in the photo that his hand was pink and white contrast from oversqueezing...sheesh...this is the expert gonna review the clean trim lil slicer you labored over to get the perfect design...sigh. When he snaps it trying to open a can of peaches you'll be the one to blame...

My dad taught us how to handle a knife...I have NEVER broken a blade (except testing HT on my own blades...) in proper usage...he'd a tanned my hide for ruining a good knife...even a good cheap knife.
Click to expand...


100000% agree on all points.

Back before you needed a 7mm ultramag and Nightforce scope to hunt eastern whitetail at 40 yards,

Back before you needed to carry a knife capable of building a log cabin with,

Before your car needed flat tire sensors,

Before the world went stupid, knives cut things. Axes chopped trees, and saws made timber.
 
John Wilson said:
100000% agree on all points.

Back before you needed a 7mm ultramag and Nightforce scope to hunt eastern whitetail at 40 yards,

Back before you needed to carry a knife capable of building a log cabin with,

Before your car needed flat tire sensors,

Before the world went stupid, knives cut things. Axes chopped trees, and saws made timber.
Click to expand...
LOL...this thread jus' keeps gettin' better!!
 
Kev said:
I have never broken a knife either. And I don’t intend to under normal use. I have no disillusion that the knife I make with replace a plasma cutter and a front end loader, at the same time. I just want to make a really really good knife.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!!! Problem is...every knife these days is supposed to jump through the same hoop. It's like watching a brain surgeon being forced to use an axe...'cause everyone agrees an axe is stronger.....yet for that purpose it's NOT a really good knife.

Kev...sorry to "thread Jack" here....John Doyle's post above hit me like a ton o' bricks. I had just ordered a new knife mag online...and well...it was like getting a sports car mag that only had pics of hummers in it.

"I just want to make a really really good knife." My goal too!! And I never want to lose sight of it...!
 
John Wilson said:
100000% agree on all points.

Back before you needed a 7mm ultramag and Nightforce scope to hunt eastern whitetail at 40 yards,

Back before you needed to carry a knife capable of building a log cabin with,

Before your car needed flat tire sensors,

Before the world went stupid, knives cut things. Axes chopped trees, and saws made timber.
Click to expand...

Amen. Just google “Nessmuk trio” or better yet go read George Washington Sears’ book “Woodcraft and Camping” this was written when knives were knives and men were Men and could carry more than one tool into the woods.
 
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