Damascus billets

Gliden07

Gliden07

Well-Known Member
Well I finished another knife I am going to start a new project and was considering using some Damascus steel I was looking on Ebay and they have Pakistani, Indian and US made Damascus billets. Has anyone tried any of these billets? Are the Indian or Pakistani billets any good are US ones any good? I do like the look of that steel. They say it will harden to 58-59 on the Rockwell scale? Are there any special hardening requirements? I'm sure it will depend on the steel used in the billet.
 
Stay away from any imported stuff.
Alabama Damascus makes good stuff that's on ebay, you can also go to their website. it's guaranteed too, they'll replace anything your not happy with. I've used it for years.
for starting out with Damascus it's a good choice, it hardens good and you know what your getting.
imported stuff could be made of anything.
 
If it says it will harden to 58-59, I have to interpret that as meaning as-quenched 58-59, which is abysmal for a decent knife steel. On the other hand, I would say where the steel is made has much less bearing on the quality as the raw materials and the skill of the maker. That being said, the folks in Pakistan and India seem more likely to use scrap steel or all out poor choices due to cost and availability. But then, again, I have seen some very poor choices in steel mixes here in the State by some folks with names in knifemaking.

If a person is really concerned about the quality they should ask the supplier what alloys are used in the construction. If the maker can’t immediately supply this information it should be a huge red flag. Next, see if the maker will give you an idea of percentages of each alloy present, then do the math.

If, for example, it is 60% 1018 and 40% O1 (one time thought to be the ultimate Damascus mix), you have the carbon content of .18 divided by the percentage, or .108, plus the carbon content of O1 (.90%) divided by the percentage or .36% for a total damascus carbon content of .47%, if there was zero decarb in the making, which is not really possible. .47% carbon steel wouldn’t make it into any of my blades, but we all have to choose our own standards.

If you want to take it to the next level you can then compare the alloys for heat treatment compatibility. Let’s just replace the 1018 in the last example with 1095. Now there is more than enough carbon present to make a pretty good blade but one steel needs a medium speed oil, the other darn near needs water to fully harden. This mix will almost necessitate that you choose which of the component’s get a proper heat treat and which one is compromised, and there will be increases in distortion, and other heat treat headaches. Not too much of an issue for the hobbyist who has time to tinker a lot with one blade, but for the guy trying to do business this can be a problem.
 
Kevin, what is your opinion of the alloys used in Alabama Damascus?
I've never really asked any knowledgeable experianced bladesmiths what they thought of it.
 
I don't know what alloys they are using these days, but anybody can do the numbers and the match up, my opinion is irrelevant compared to simply doing the numbers.
 
Damascus is beautiful...obviously. If the inventors of Damascus had the alloy capabilities we have today...would they have bothered? I just always think of it in the art knife category...on a more practical level, I have always wondered how much steel you need to toss before you're good at making it? And by good I mean consistent. The skeptic in me believes there are a LOT of beautiful looking, marginal quality blades floatin' around....

But I do love the look and will probably buy one someday....from a Master blade smith. (as of now I have no desire to try making Damascus.)

Anyway...sorry to jack this thread a bit. The coffee was strong today.....lol.
 
At least you had some coffee. Was running behind and didn't even get any made. :( And they don't pay me enough to drink this stuff they call coffee here in the office.
 
Anyway...sorry to jack this thread a bit. The coffee was strong today.....lol.

That's ok I understand!! LOL!!
 
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Gliden, you mentioned the 1095 and 15N20... Any chance it is a Perkin Knives damascus billet? I've got one of those on the bench. Wife bought it for me for Christmas. Haven't decided what to make with it yet. I gotta make something out of it eventually; wouldn't want her to feel bad for buying it. But, when I was doing some research on it and the company I came up with lots of mixed reviews. Odd thing is that most of the bad reviews were almost more innuendo and insinuation than hard facts. Lots of comments about how it was Pakastani origin or comments about how the guy operates behind multiple company names and other stuff like that. Plenty of posts about someone knowing someone who got one of his knives and the finish was horrible and the steel wouldn't hold an edge.
 
I can only comment based on experience..... historically, I have received more calls for help with "import" damacus then with any other. (usually issues with hardening or inclusions/cold shuts) (anybody remember "Thunder Forged" damascus? )

I have the strong suspicion that many of the alloys listed as being used in "import" damascus is just plain false advertising. I personally believe that they review literature of American damascus makers, and intentionally insert whatever those damascus makers are using as the alloys they are using in their import "damascus". I could get all long winded trying to explain, but suffice to say that a large percentage of whatever import damascus contains, it's non-hardenable.

I know that the cost of import damascus is attractive to many, but there's never been a truer case of "you get what you pay for" then with damascus billets used to produce knives/blades. Personally, I sell damascus on a per inch price, based on the size and pattern of the steel/billet. Knowing what I do about producing damascus billets, when I see a 12" billet being offered for $60 ($5 per inch) I would RUN the other way!

When it comes to the alloys used in creating a billet of damascus, everybody has their own specific reasons for using the alloys they use. However, one thing that I feel many inexperienced forgers miss the mark on is the consideration of what I call "compatibility" of the alloys used to produce damascus. By that I mean how similar do the chosen alloys expand/contract when heated and cooled. Right now, the most compatible steels available are 1080/1084 & 15N20. Not only do these two alloys have nearly identical expansion/contraction properties, but both are also hardenable, and yield excellent contrast in the finished product(s). If compatibility of the chosen alloys differs greatly, then at best you can expect significant warping, and in worst case the layered materials will literally tear themselves apart during heat treat.

A couple of "red flags" for me are anytime I see/hear of 5160 or 4140 being used in a damascus mix..... either of those alloys simply do not "play well with others". Meaning that the probability of issues is much higher if either are used in a damascus mix.

When it comes to performance, provided the individual producing the damascus is competent, and whomever heat treats it is competent, performance will be no better, or no worse then a blade produced from either/any of the included alloys/steels.
 
Thanks for the input Ed (and others). Definitely appreciate the info and knowledge. Speaking of which, when is the next video coming out?

On the Perkin billet I have, as mentioned the wife bought it for me when I started picking up tools and materials and getting serious about getting into blacksmithing and knives. I've read enough (too many) threads on Perkin and the many aliases and issues to know I'd stay away from the stuff. Too many shady doings to risk hard earned cash/time. But then I'd also stay away from good damascas for the same reason I force myself to stay away from Doyle's beautiful wood. I don't want to mess up something that nice yet. ;)
 
I believe Tim is trying for one new video posted per week....at least at the present time. I suspect as we get into the more lengthy videos (the forging videos) those might be further apart, but again, I'm just the monkey in front of the camera :)..... Tim does all the hard work....the editing, production, etc. I just get to have all the fun of teaching.
 
If 1095 and 15n20 were used in a 50/50 ratio, then the total carbon % would be 0.85%. An excellent carbon %. Even if there was more 15n20 than 1095, the overall carbon content would be very acceptable. This would require a somewhat fast oil to harden well. The 15n20 I have bought from Aldo is very low Mn itself, .3% IIRC.
 
WY_Not said:
Gliden, you mentioned the 1095 and 15N20... Any chance it is a Perkin Knives damascus billet? I've got one of those on the bench. Wife bought it for me for Christmas. Haven't decided what to make with it yet. I gotta make something out of it eventually; wouldn't want her to feel bad for buying it. But, when I was doing some research on it and the company I came up with lots of mixed reviews. Odd thing is that most of the bad reviews were almost more innuendo and insinuation than hard facts. Lots of comments about how it was Pakastani origin or comments about how the guy operates behind multiple company names and other stuff like that. Plenty of posts about someone knowing someone who got one of his knives and the finish was horrible and the steel wouldn't hold an edge.
Click to expand...

WyNot it was called "Designer Knife" I saw another identical billet by a David but when you opened the description it wss the same company. Nice looking pics and 100% feedback? Looked good?
 
Well, I probably should have left out "Somewhat" and just said "Fast oil". Parks 50 from Maxim oil in Ft Worth TX. Or DT-48 (haven't used it but it's said to be like the P50). Even canola oil warmed to 130°F would be best termed a "somewhat fast oil", but is NOT a commercial quenchant and NOT designed to slow down the cooling once the pearlite nose is beaten, like Parks 50 is designed to do. P50 mimics the speed of water, without the risk of *ping*.
 
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