Balancing Orders vs New Design Ideas

C

Cubane

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone,

I thought I would open a discussion on what you do to balance fulfilling orders vs coming up with new designs and experimenting. I only make knives in my spare time and I find if I get too many orders I don't like to leave them waiting too long so I spend all of my time making knives for other people. At the same time I am making knives as a hobby for my enjoyment and I find if I haven't spent some time trying new things out then I start to lose motivation to get out into the shed. I know Jens Anso does his testlabs outbreak as a way of getting around this. I was thinking of stopping taking orders so I can get some enjoyment from this hobby again. Then I would try some designs out. If I like a particular design I might do a batch of them for sale but not taking any orders for knives similar to the batch ones. If I consider that though it seems pretty stupid to throw money away that supports my hobby so I was wondering how other people balance this. I know the answer will be different for full time makers vs us part time guys since the need for sales is complete different. How do you guys take the time to experiment or how much do you devote to personal knife making ?

Alistair
 
Alistair,
You know me I do not take orders, so my time is my time.
And I think some guys that do take orders make knives other than their orders at times for knife shows and such?
I would say just be honest with your customers about wait time? And delivery time and you would be OK?

Todd



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I'm a part time maker and have wrestled with the same dilemma. Here are some things I considered. One, orders make me more money. Because I'd rather make a knife I want to make than to take an order, I routinely quote orders 10 to 15% higher than I'd make the same knife for if I were making it for sale. It cuts down on the number of people who order, but maintains my profit margins. Also, I don't have to find a buyer when the knife is done, which saves time marketing. Two, be realistic about your deadlines. I usually make knives in batches of 6 to 10. I've learned that each batch takes 6 to 8 weeks to complete. I routinely quote a delivery time two to four weeks beyond when I think I'll actually have the knife finished. If you deliver early, you're a hero. Late, you're a goat. Three, I usually put one or two blades in every batch just to sell outright. I make a few I want to make in every batch. Four, I never settle for OK. I'm constantly looking for ways to make every knife and sheath better, whether it's an order or an experiment.
 
jkf96a said:
Four, I never settle for OK. I'm constantly looking for ways to make every knife and sheath better, whether it's an order or an experiment.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with that. If I am working on an order and I catch myself thinking "That will do" and I know it isn't right I will put that knife down and move onto a different one or build a little jig or stop for a break or the day as I know I am not in the right frame of mind to be finishing off a knife.
 
Same here. When I get the thought, "that's good enough", I put the blade down and move on to something else. I will always come back to it and make it the way it needs to be when I'm in the right mindset.

As a hobby maker myself, I've stopped taking orders. I found that I had a lot of people saying, "I want one just like that." This had me making a lot of a proven and good design, but it did not allow me to pursue other things. I've still got a really nicely shaped bowie sitting on my bench that I need to finish grind (it's already heat treated), sand and handle. I ground it out sometime in the early spring. Once I get through this Christmas season, I will have virtually all my orders done and delivered. I'm getting ready to set up a forge for the first time, and finally start forging. I'm hoping that I have the time to do it after the holidays, and then I can wrestle some more enjoyment from this craft I love so much.

--nathan
 
I thought getting orders was a good thing. I suppose from a business standpoint it is but from a makers standpoint I don't like it. I am WAY behind on orders and since I too am doing this part time it's taking longer than I'd hoped for the knives on order. I did give longer lead times when the knives were ordered to cover any lags on my part so I'm doing okay.

I think I'm going to stop taking orders for awhile though to make sure I get caught up. When I get caught up I'll consider taking orders again.

Being behind like this, or under a deadline does take some of the fun out of the whole thing.

SDS
 
As a knife maker you cross the first line when you sell your first knife...you have become a business. Like it or not.

Second line you cross is when you take an order. You have continued deeper into the business aspect of custom knives.

Many hobby makers have difficulty making the transition from hobby to businessman.

One solution is to make only make you what and not take orders. Some makers choose this path.

However, those same makers are some of the first to complain that they do not sell out, get articles/covers in magazines, win awards, have dealers wanting to work with them, etc.

So there can be a downside to the first solution.

I knew one maker who would figure out how many knives he could make in a year (a very realistic estimate) he would start January 1st and take orders until he hit whatever the number was. Then that was it until next January 1st. Years later he committed suicide. However, it was not due to his ordering format.

Most makers who decide to sell knives and take orders have to learn how to balance the distribution of their knives.

The 3 areas (4 for some):

1) Orders

2) Shows

3) New knife designs

4 Dealers.

Too many makers are afraid to say no to an order. It is always better to say no..upfront (explaining why) then to take the order and keep putting off the customer.

It gives you the appearance of being unprofessional and eventually you will gain a reputation as a maker who can't be counted on for an on time delivery.

Just food for thought.
 
Thinking about it some more rather than taking orders I could change it to a waiting list. Then when I work on a batch I can put a customer knife in, a backup for that one in case something goes horribly wrong (or for sale at a show or on the internet) and an experimental or a higher end knife for pleasure. When I start on a batch I can contact the next customer about what type of knife they would like and current prices etc.
 
taking orders sucked the fun right out of knife making for me. At first it was very flattering and then it got to be a nagging issue all the time. I didn't have time to explore new techniques. I just stopped stopped taking orders, got caught up and never looked back.
 
That's the way I also see it, Tracy. Given, I'm not making a living from making knives, but even taking the occasional orders and trying to meet deadlines just made it a chore to me. I know that I could never make a living at selling knives. I'm WAY too slow. I do it because I love it. The knives I sell are given the best that I have to give, and are sold just to give me more knife-related spending money.

I've found that once I learned to say "No" to new orders, I'm under a lot less stress and enjoy working more. I have 5 to make for Christmas-time: two for a customer, another for a return customer, a KITH gift, and a gift for my father-in-law. I'm going to be stretched just to get those finished, but once those are done, I'm looking forward to making knives for the sake of making knives.

I want to explore new avenues of the craft including forging, hidden tangs, take-downs, and folders. Not having to make knives just to deliver will allow me to pursue these areas. This way, I can make a knife, keep it if I want, or put it up for sale to people I know or on the boards. If I don't sell the knives I put up, I can always keep them and build a stock for gun/knife shows in the future. I'm very much looking forward to that, and I'm thankful and blessed that I have a day job that I love and that pays the bills so I can make knives just for the sake of making knives.

--nathan
 
Great thread.

This is something I have been trying to work out. It doesn't take too long to get me backed up when I take orders and I really don't like having people wait too long. I find it very hard to say no to an order but, for a while anyway, I'm splitting up the stuff I make between people on my email list from my site, show knives, a couple of dealers, and new or prototype stuff. I'm hoping that keeps things more manageable and with the list still keeps people interested while not having someone wait a year or more on an order. It also keeps me from feeling like I have to make knives vs wanting to make sense it allows me to try new stuff when I get bored.

At least that's what I'm hoping huh1 unsure :rolleyes: :)


mo
 
If I may ask a perhaps naive question? Are all orders equally distracting from the work the knifemaker wants to be creating. Having not much money, I only have two custom knivesfrom others, one I ordered, one I bought as is and my request was simply something like "a canadian belt knife sort of knife, a user of course but the details are up to you in terms of steel, design etc and can we use this stuff ( an old fiberglass hardhat for sentimental reasons) for a handle and please dont hollow grind. I didnt want to limit the makers imagination and I didnt want just another standard model from a makers repertoire. I found a knifemaker whose work in my price range and I told him no hurry but it would be nice by Christmas (a few months away). He jumped on it and produced a beautiful knife and soon as the economy improves I will get another. I suppose the big question really is, does placing fewer restraints on what I am looking for increase the pleasurable aspects of knife making for the maker or is it really just an anxiety producing hassle demanding to much customer time. Having only made a few knives myself and selling only to friends and family. In my case the knifemaker spent more time then I expected him to e-mailing me designs etc. which I appreciated. I agreed with all his suggestions but in reality if he had said, this is my design, it will be ready at this time please have your money ready by then thank you I would not have argued.
 
I for one like it when a customer says, for example "X model folder with damascus bolsters, the rest I leave to you."
 
as a knife buyer I'm happy to ask for something from a maker and leave it all up to them.
No rush.
Whenever
Whatever, really.
I'm happy to discuss their ideas if they want to and occasionally I ask for a particular model with a variation.
If they say no, no worries.
I like their work and I'm not short of knives.
This has been a very benign deal for me.

I wonder what makers feel of such a request
 
It isn't the requirements for a particular knife that stirs up trouble or any customer asking for their knife in a hurry. It is an internal pressure from myself to clear out all the orders before working on anything else and from what I read it is an issue that quite a few people have thought about. I wonder if that is why you see new makers that have started selling disappear after a couple of years. I definitely plan on changing my knife making time to include some time for my stuff. Whether that is including some new designs in a batch or half a day for customers and half a day for me or some other idea I haven't thought up yet. I enjoy the discussions with a customer for what they like in a knife and really their feedback once they received the knife makes us better makers although I suspect we see more "perceived" flaws in the knives we send out than they do :)

I think that once that balance is sorted out and delivery times are adjusted accordingly it won't be as much of an issue any more. I am just getting through a lot of orders at the moment and not trying new things out has been trying. (I have a stack of damascus I forged a year ago and haven't used yet as well some mammoth tooth and bone scales to try and some Carbon Fibre all waiting to be experimented with). If a customer is asking some something I have never used before it can be a good thing :)

Alistair
 
I want to clarify. I'm in no way trying to villanize my customers. I'm flattered that people request knives from me and that someone would appreciate the hard work and time I put into my knives, and I give my customers the best of me that I can. And regardless of the knife order, I'm always satisfied and proud when I finally finish one up and kind of sad when it leaves for its new home. As for requirments for the order, I get excited about orders that are something different. New ideas start popping into my head, and that gets me looking forward to the build. I also like the artistic freedom to modify as I see fit for aesthetics, looks, or funciton.

I guess the issue for me is exactly what Alistair mentioned. I feel obligated to finish up all my orders before I work on something else for personal plessure. I haven't found that balance yet, and there are too many areas of knife making I want to explore to do it all in between orders. I'm not going to permanently stop taking orders; I'm just trying to give myself some time to "dry out" and try some new things without the self-inflicted pressure of orders.

--nathan
 
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