Another burner problem with pics

Forgedog

Well-Known Member
So I got my burners hooked up and did a test burn.

They worked before...

I have the old original 30psi regulator/gauge and hose.

Now when I try to light them... It seems like they have WAAAAY too much pressure.
What happens is... I open my valves just a crack not even 1 pound on my gauge...it fires up a little. Then I increase the pressure a little not even .5 of a pound and it roars, the flame is about 5 inches from the burner tip and just poops out.

Ive tried it with the main valve on the tank wide open and also 99% closed... Same thing.

What helps a little is if I mostly cover the air intake of the burner.

Only thing different with this test is the burners no longer have an air throttle because ive been having issues making them.

Also the old 30psi gauge sticks open at 15psi.

No leaks.


I should mention, when it had air throttles they didnt do much till they were nearly closed.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    621.8 KB · Views: 13
  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    709.3 KB · Views: 12
  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    968.3 KB · Views: 12
  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    481.3 KB · Views: 12
Burners tend to burn better inside a forge body than in open air. While they can usually be made to burn in open air the settings will be totally different once it's in the forge.

I'll not comment further because Ed and several other folks here are a LOTS more knowledgeable on burners than I am. That looks like a commercial burner - have you contacted the vendor?
 
First make sure your gauge is PSI and not bars. This may sound silly but I have done that before salvaging a used gauge. Next I would check to make sure the gauge is working proper. 1 PSI should not be jetting enough air into the burner to do what you are describing. What pressure reading are you getting on the burner gauges themselves?
 
First make sure your gauge is PSI and not bars. This may sound silly but I have done that before salvaging a used gauge. Next I would check to make sure the gauge is working proper. 1 PSI should not be jetting enough air into the burner to do what you are describing. What pressure reading are you getting on the burner gauges themselves?

The main tank gauge is a 30psi and always reads 15psi.

The burner gauges go up to 60psi but during this test they read 0-1psi.

My feeling is its the tank gauge but it worked before... And idk what could be wrong with it.
 
Burners tend to burn better inside a forge body than in open air.
110% agree! In fact, burners will act TOTALLY different in a forge body versus open air.

Those burners have me somewhat confused.... I've never seen a forge burner designed exactly like that. After looking closely at the images, it seems like those tank fitting might antiquated? The last time I saw something similar was from the 70s era.

I suspect the burn problems are due to NOT having some type of dampener on the burner intakes. Outside like that, there is no back pressure on the burners.....where as if placed into a forge body, there is significant back pressure.

Didn't you mention previously about moving?? If so, check the elevation between where you lived, and where you live now.....elevation has a profound impact on venturi type burners...... which is one of the reasons that I always advocate a properly sized single burner, in a blown/blower configuration...... can be easily used/adjusted, no matter where it's at.
 
110% agree! In fact, burners will act TOTALLY different in a forge body versus open air.

Those burners have me somewhat confused.... I've never seen a forge burner designed exactly like that. After looking closely at the images, it seems like those tank fitting might antiquated? The last time I saw something similar was from the 70s era.

I suspect the burn problems are due to NOT having some type of dampener on the burner intakes. Outside like that, there is no back pressure on the burners.....where as if placed into a forge body, there is significant back pressure.

Didn't you mention previously about moving?? If so, check the elevation between where you lived, and where you live now.....elevation has a profound impact on venturi type burners...... which is one of the reasons that I always advocate a properly sized single burner, in a blown/blower configuration...... can be easily used/adjusted, no matter where it's at.

The burners are Reil buners... Not sure I made them exactly to plan, It was ages ago.
Not the 70s mind you lol

The fittings could be quite old... Hand me down tanks and parts.

The forge body does make sense... Ill give that a shot, and the altitude YES! That never crossed my mind but I went from mountain altitude to sea level.
 
Last edited:
It just clicked on something you wrote - you say the pressure gauge at the regulator is "stuck at 15 psi", so you have no clue as to pressure the regulator is set at? Also, note those two pressure gauges mounted on the bell of the burners, aren't those down stream of the jets? If so, they are going to read almost zero (1 psi) regardless of the pressure the regulator is set at. Take one of those pressure gauges and replace that "stuck at 15 psi" gauge so you'll have some idea what the regulator pressure really is.

Ed (and other knowledgeable folks) have you ever seen a pressure gauge mounted on the burner itself?

If I miss understood the "stuck at 15 psi" statement, Ooops on my part {g}. You mention you moved from mountains to sea level, have you noticed how much the gas mileage has changed in your vehicles?
 
It just clicked on something you wrote - you say the pressure gauge at the regulator is "stuck at 15 psi", so you have no clue as to pressure the regulator is set at? Also, note those two pressure gauges mounted on the bell of the burners, aren't those down stream of the jets? If so, they are going to read almost zero (1 psi) regardless of the pressure the regulator is set at. Take one of those pressure gauges and replace that "stuck at 15 psi" gauge so you'll have some idea what the regulator pressure really is.

Ed (and other knowledgeable folks) have you ever seen a pressure gauge mounted on the burner itself?

If I miss understood the "stuck at 15 psi" statement, Ooops on my part {g}. You mention you moved from mountains to sea level, have you noticed how much the gas mileage has changed in your vehicles?

The gauge is downstream... So take one of those off and use it in place of the old guage at the tank.

I was just thinking that, the fitting behind the tank gauge must be a regulator... I mean I just figured it was, it looks like one to me but ive never quite seen one like that. Gets me wondering...

There does seem to be a bit of a mileage change but then its hard to say really.
 
the fitting behind the tank gauge must be a regulator... I mean I just figured it was, it looks like one to me but ive never quite seen one like that. Gets me wondering...
Wait, that "fitting" between pressure gauge and tank doesn't have an adjustment knob on it? I looked at that photo and thinks that's a funky looking regulator, but figured the adjustment knob was on other side out of view in photo. It really sounds like you don't have a regulator at all, and if not, that would give exactly the results you're seeing. You need something like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0033JF0GE/
but you'll have to add fittings for a pressure gauge downstream of regulator. Better a regulator like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JNBNEZA/ that has port for the pressure gauge. You can also look here:
https://gashosesandregulators.com/High-Pressure-Regulators/45 for a full setup. Scroll down the page looking at different options.
 
I'm gona make a suggestion that you might scoff at.....but, I KNOW it will solve your problems. Build yourself a SIMPLE, single burner, with a blower. It will work at any elevation, will be simply to use/build.....and the main expense will be in buying a PROPER blower for the application.

OK....If I've not scared you off yet....that means you might be interested.... so I will give a brief outline or how, ask a couple of questions that will allow me to better recommend pipe sizes, and get you started.

First: You want a blower that is designed for the application! DO NOT SKIMP here, and DO NOT use an el-cheapo "squirrel cage" blower....it WILL NOT work with back pressure, and will quickly burn out the motor. Here's what you want for a blower: https://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/products/forge-fan-fuel/blowers.html which blower will depend on the answers to the following questions.. I am going to assume you would build a round (circular design) forge, of either horizontal or vertical orientation.....

1. What is the ID of the forge body/pipe?

2. What is the length of the forge body? (for a single burner, I'd recommend no longer then 18")

3. What type and thickness of insulation/refractory will be used in forge?


Once those questions are answered....sizing the burner will be easy, and then we will know the CFMs the blower will need to put out.

The burner itself will be made of black iron pipe..... you'll need a total of 5 items made of black iron...
1. a single piece of 18" long black iron pipe
2. A single piece of 12" long black iron pipe
3. A single 90 degree black iron Elbow
4. A single pipe flange to attach the blower to
5. A single piece of 1/4" black iron pipe nipple.


Next would be the propane fittings..... described from the burner, to the propane source/tank.
1. A propane needle valve that will thread to the 1/4" pipe nipple
2. Enough propane hose to reach the propane source, and adjustable propane regulator, gauge, and method of attaching to a propane tank/source such as: https://www.amazon.com/GASPRO-Adjus...0761&sprefix=adjustable+propan,aps,224&sr=8-5
4. A propane source

If you can answer the bold questions above, I can give you all the sizes you'd need to build a single, properly size, blown burner that will work in your forge.

Here's a pic of what I'm talking about.....

Welding-Forgebunerandblower1.jpg
 
Sorry for the late replies. Things here are pretty busy lately.
I believe I may have the forge burner issue sorted! Hopefully ill know later today and ill post an update and proper replies as soon as I can.

I completely changed out the gas hoses. Now its a 10' with a new high pressure regulator attached to the tank.

That helped with one issue...

The other issue WAS the lack of air control. So it looks like ill have to make ose blasted air throttles today after all.
Thats been the difficult part for me... It would be easier if I had a lathe but... I have an idea that might work.

Then its just, hook it all to the forge body and do some fine tuning.
 
Ed's right, a blown burner is for sure the way to go for a forge. Ed, what about this blower? Looks like the same type blower, but sold at $78 shipped for a 2.5" outlet. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071NQDNRK/? It's 116 CFM at 1.5 inches of water ("if" I did all the conversions correctly:)
 
I'm gona make a suggestion that you might scoff at.....but, I KNOW it will solve your problems. Build yourself a SIMPLE, single burner, with a blower. It will work at any elevation, will be simply to use/build.....and the main expense will be in buying a PROPER blower for the application.

OK....If I've not scared you off yet....that means you might be interested.... so I will give a brief outline or how, ask a couple of questions that will allow me to better recommend pipe sizes, and get you started.

First: You want a blower that is designed for the application! DO NOT SKIMP here, and DO NOT use an el-cheapo "squirrel cage" blower....it WILL NOT work with back pressure, and will quickly burn out the motor. Here's what you want for a blower: https://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/products/forge-fan-fuel/blowers.html which blower will depend on the answers to the following questions.. I am going to assume you would build a round (circular design) forge, of either horizontal or vertical orientation.....

1. What is the ID of the forge body/pipe?

2. What is the length of the forge body? (for a single burner, I'd recommend no longer then 18")

3. What type and thickness of insulation/refractory will be used in forge?


Once those questions are answered....sizing the burner will be easy, and then we will know the CFMs the blower will need to put out.

The burner itself will be made of black iron pipe..... you'll need a total of 5 items made of black iron...
1. a single piece of 18" long black iron pipe
2. A single piece of 12" long black iron pipe
3. A single 90 degree black iron Elbow
4. A single pipe flange to attach the blower to
5. A single piece of 1/4" black iron pipe nipple.


Next would be the propane fittings..... described from the burner, to the propane source/tank.
1. A propane needle valve that will thread to the 1/4" pipe nipple
2. Enough propane hose to reach the propane source, and adjustable propane regulator, gauge, and method of attaching to a propane tank/source such as: https://www.amazon.com/GASPRO-Adjustable-Regulator-Indicator-Stainless/dp/B07SB2Q8X7/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2INEK38CHKNP4&keywords=adjustable+propane+regulator+0-30+psi+with+gauge&qid=1571240761&sprefix=adjustable+propan,aps,224&sr=8-5
4. A propane source

If you can answer the bold questions above, I can give you all the sizes you'd need to build a single, properly size, blown burner that will work in your forge.

Here's a pic of what I'm talking about.....

Welding-Forgebunerandblower1.jpg
mine is dang close to the same as that
 
Ed, what about this blower? Looks like the same type blower, but sold at $78 shipped for a 2.5" outlet. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071NQDNRK/? It's 116 CFM at 1.5 inches of water ("if" I did all the conversions correctly

For the price, I think it would be worth a shot! It's seems nearly identical to the ones being sold at Blacksmith's Depot! ;) Heck, for that money I might just have to order one.....test it....and if it works out..... I'll have a spare! :)
 
I'm gona make a suggestion that you might scoff at.....but, I KNOW it will solve your problems. Build yourself a SIMPLE, single burner, with a blower. It will work at any elevation, will be simply to use/build.....and the main expense will be in buying a PROPER blower for the application.

OK....If I've not scared you off yet....that means you might be interested.... so I will give a brief outline or how, ask a couple of questions that will allow me to better recommend pipe sizes, and get you started.

First: You want a blower that is designed for the application! DO NOT SKIMP here, and DO NOT use an el-cheapo "squirrel cage" blower....it WILL NOT work with back pressure, and will quickly burn out the motor. Here's what you want for a blower: https://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/products/forge-fan-fuel/blowers.html which blower will depend on the answers to the following questions.. I am going to assume you would build a round (circular design) forge, of either horizontal or vertical orientation.....

1. What is the ID of the forge body/pipe?

2. What is the length of the forge body? (for a single burner, I'd recommend no longer then 18")

3. What type and thickness of insulation/refractory will be used in forge?


Once those questions are answered....sizing the burner will be easy, and then we will know the CFMs the blower will need to put out.

The burner itself will be made of black iron pipe..... you'll need a total of 5 items made of black iron...
1. a single piece of 18" long black iron pipe
2. A single piece of 12" long black iron pipe
3. A single 90 degree black iron Elbow
4. A single pipe flange to attach the blower to
5. A single piece of 1/4" black iron pipe nipple.


Next would be the propane fittings..... described from the burner, to the propane source/tank.
1. A propane needle valve that will thread to the 1/4" pipe nipple
2. Enough propane hose to reach the propane source, and adjustable propane regulator, gauge, and method of attaching to a propane tank/source such as: https://www.amazon.com/GASPRO-Adjustable-Regulator-Indicator-Stainless/dp/B07SB2Q8X7/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2INEK38CHKNP4&keywords=adjustable+propane+regulator+0-30+psi+with+gauge&qid=1571240761&sprefix=adjustable+propan,aps,224&sr=8-5
4. A propane source

If you can answer the bold questions above, I can give you all the sizes you'd need to build a single, properly size, blown burner that will work in your forge.

Here's a pic of what I'm talking about.....

Welding-Forgebunerandblower1.jpg

Ed sory for the late reply, just slowly getting things done here.

To answer the previous questions... The forge body is an old propane tank

The inside length is 13"

The interior is approx 366 cubic inches

The liner is 2" kaowool and 1/4 to 1/2 inch refractory mortar with a coating of itc100


I have a question about the blower image...

So this actualy has NO gas orifice, just the 1/4 pipe to the larger pipe?

What is the diameter of the larger black pipe and is there anything inside it like a flared nozzel or is that pipe the nozzel as well, and is it flared?

The two lengths of black pipe attached to the elbow... Does the length and elbow serve a purpose, or can it be a straight shot of pipe. No elbow and plus or minus the overall length?


Im just wondering about cost vs efficiency.

If I reduce my current set up to a single burner and change the burner as you described, by removing the air throttle cap and pipe extension. Just leaving it as a venturi type.

Assuming I can get it dialed in to where I want it.

Would it still be more efficient to go to the blower style?
The cost of the blower and shipping to canada would likely work out to be around $100-150

Pros - cons of venturi vs blower?

Thanks!
 
Last edited:
So I got my burners hooked up and did a test burn.

They worked before...

I have the old original 30psi regulator/gauge and hose.

Now when I try to light them... It seems like they have WAAAAY too much pressure.
What happens is... I open my valves just a crack not even 1 pound on my gauge...it fires up a little. Then I increase the pressure a little not even .5 of a pound and it roars, the flame is about 5 inches from the burner tip and just poops out.

Ive tried it with the main valve on the tank wide open and also 99% closed... Same thing.

What helps a little is if I mostly cover the air intake of the burner.

Only thing different with this test is the burners no longer have an air throttle because ive been having issues making them.

Also the old 30psi gauge sticks open at 15psi.

No leaks.


I should mention, when it had air throttles they didnt do much till they were nearly closed.


Those look like Reil burners but they are compiled way different! https://ronreil.abana.org/design1.shtml

What are the gauges on the back of the burners for. Unless they are in-line with the gas to the burner you are not going to get a reading!

This from site: http://metalcast.boorman.us/reil_1.html

Page 3 http://metalcast.boorman.us/reil_3.html they are showing tapping the back of the bell to add a choke plate. The choke plate is just a round disc that open and closes across the end of the bell to regulate the air flow..
1573954713727.pngThis is a choke plate on a slightly different burner
Hope this helps! As for what Ken and Ed both spoke to, it will burn differently in the forge!!

Where your gauges are sticking out is where the gas line should hook up! Page six shows the gas hook up where you have the gauge!! Page Six http://metalcast.boorman.us/reil_6.html
This may have been what you are shooting for but, 1573954872317.png I don't see how that gauge is going to give you an accurate reading. The guage has to be in-line to get a reading!! My O2 on the burner!!
 
I have a question about the blower image...
So this actualy has NO gas orifice, just the 1/4 pipe to the larger pipe?

That IS CORRECT. There is no orifice....just the 1/4" pipe nipple. The key is the propane needle valve.... it's basically the "orifice".

What is the diameter of the larger black pipe and is there anything inside it like a flared nozzel or is that pipe the nozzel as well, and is it flared?
There are two different diameter pipes in that burner. Going from the blower..... a large pipe flange is screwed/attached to a 12" long X 2" black iron pipe. The 2" black iron pipe is screwed/attached to a 2" X 1 1/2" 90 degree elbow. Next is a 1 1/2" X 12" long MINIMUM black iron pipe. (sing that pic, I have change to an 18" length of 1 1/2" there, to improve the burn, and prevent any pre-ignition inside the burner tube. There are no "flares". However, what I do have is concentric pipes inside the forge end of the burner (the 1 1/2" pipe)..... for the last 3" I have a 1" inside the 1 1/2", a 3" piece of 1/2" inside that, and finally a 3" piece of 1/4" inside that. Some folks call it a "flame holder", or whatever, for me it's most important function is to quiet the burner. Without, it literally sounds like a jet engine in the shop.....with it, it's more a gentle roar, and is tolerable, and with ear plugs in barely noticeable.

The two lengths of black pipe attached to the elbow... Does the length and elbow serve a purpose, or can it be a straight shot of pipe. No elbow and plus or minus the overall length?
YES. First, with a blown type burner, It's VERY IMPORTANT that the fuel enter as close to the burner as possible, and on an acute angle (90 degree to the way the pipe runs is about as acute as you can get). Both length and the elbow serve very important purposes..... Over the years I've found that 12" is about as short as you want to go for either piece/size of pipe on a burner of this type. Shorter and problems start occurring...things like poor fuel/air mix, pre-ignition inside the portion of the burner that fits into the forge body, etc. Just suffice to say DO NOT make either piece of pipe shorter then 12", and your life will be much eaiser/nicer. :) The elbow is also VERY IMPORTANT..... to explain, lets start at the 1/4" pipe nipple....by placing the pipe nipple an the acute angle (90 degrees to the direction the pipe runs) you've already forced the fuel/air mix to "tumble" some, and there by mix some to begin with. The 90 degree elbow does two things......... first, it forces the fuel/air mix to "tumble", creating a better, more efficient burn. In addition, the fact that the elbow is a "reducer" (going from 2" to 1 1/2") also mean it increase the velocity of the fuel/air mix....which is very important for a strong, efficient burn.

Im just wondering about cost vs efficiency.
There's no question about it....a blown type burner will always be far more efficient then a venturi. That burner runs my welding forge....it's a vertical design, 18" tall, oval shaped with 16" of work area inside (front to back), and 8" side to side inside. The burner runs on 5 psi most of the time. I have a 500 gallon propane tank, dedicated to the forges....and when I am working "full bore", I fill the tank every 16-18 MONTHS.

If I reduce my current set up to a single burner and change the burner as you described, by removing the air throttle cap and pipe extension. Just leaving it as a venturi type.
Assuming I can get it dialed in to where I want it.
MAYBE..... Honestly, those burner you have now are simply a "crap shoot".....you MIGHT be able to get one or more of them to work, and you might not. If you have the time and inclination, give it a try, but my gut tells me that you'd just be wasting time that could be spent forging, if you were to build a simple blown burner.

Would it still be more efficient to go to the blower style?
The cost of the blower and shipping to canada would likely work out to be around $100-150
In my opinion there's no question that a blown burner/forge is FAR more efficient/cost effective then a venturi. Considering size for size, in the same forge body, a venturi burner will usually use roughly 3X more fuel then a blown burner. Even wit the cost you mentioned, it's a bargain because you will be able to use that burner, very likely, for the rest of your life, in just about any forge you decide to build/buy/use. But now we get into your next question........

Pros - cons of venturi vs blower?

I'm gona just say here that for all practical purposes, a blown burner is simply a better choice for most situations. It's generally going to be more initial cost to build, because you buy the blower (and MAKE SURE the blower you buy is intended for forge purposes, and NOT a shade pole/"squirrel cage" type blower). ALWAYS, when building a blown burner....build it for more output then you need. Why? Because once you reach the upper limit of a given burner, your only option then is to build a bigger/higher output burner. With a blow burner, you can always "dial it down"/adjust it down to fit the need....venturi burners not so much.....Venturi burners are usually sized to a specific forge body size/type.....that's why so many folks have difficulty when buying pre-built venturi burners...... and then most times, putting them in forge bodies they were not designed with/for.

Now, all that being said, a venturi burner is a good choice....with a LOT OF IFs......
IF a person needs/wants a burner/forge capable of being used without electricity
IF the venturi is simple in design, and designed for the specific forge body/size it's being use in
IF a person doesn't mind the extra fuel consumption necessary with a venturi
IF........

And finally.... It's worth repeating again.... WHEN IT COMES TO PROPANE FORGES AND BURNERS...... THE "K.I.S.S." PRINCIPLE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN KEEP IN MIND! The more you overtake the plumbing....the easier it is to stop up the drain! Over engineering a build is the most common reason that a propane forge fails.
 
Last edited:
Man this thread is just gold. I appreciate you guys taking the time to type all this out. I am going to build a new forge soon so I have bookmarked this whole thread. Keep rolling.
 
Chris, you are 100% correct - I think I speak for everybody and I say we all really appreciate Ed taking the time to share his knowledge with the rest of us.

Ed didn't really comment on the cons of a venturi burner. I've played with those learning to make them. I've got a couple different designs, 2 commercial burners purchased that work good, and a homemade burner I built. Both designs work good, but by the very nature of a venturi burner they work best at max burn rate. They don't turn down to a lower rate very good at all. From my experience (and reading) to get a forge at a lower temp with a venturi burner, 1700F for example the burner will need to be turned ON, then OFF to hold a lower temp.

From my reading a blown burner can be adjusted to lower temp by adjusting the air supply and gas mixture. I am in the process of building a blown forge myself and will be following Ed's advice.
 
Last edited:
Those look like Reil burners but they are compiled way different! https://ronreil.abana.org/design1.shtml

What are the gauges on the back of the burners for. Unless they are in-line with the gas to the burner you are not going to get a reading!

This from site: http://metalcast.boorman.us/reil_1.html

Page 3 http://metalcast.boorman.us/reil_3.html they are showing tapping the back of the bell to add a choke plate. The choke plate is just a round disc that open and closes across the end of the bell to regulate the air flow..
View attachment 70855This is a choke plate on a slightly different burner
Hope this helps! As for what Ken and Ed both spoke to, it will burn differently in the forge!!

Where your gauges are sticking out is where the gas line should hook up! Page six shows the gas hook up where you have the gauge!! Page Six http://metalcast.boorman.us/reil_6.html
This may have been what you are shooting for but, View attachment 70856 I don't see how that gauge is going to give you an accurate reading. The guage has to be in-line to get a reading!! My O2 on the burner!!


They are Reil burners... Idk why but over the years I have rather altered the original design some.
Lmao! THANK YOU! I dont know how I missed that with the pressure gauge! Learn something new every day.
 
Back
Top