BladeBond Epoxy in stock and ready to ship!

Hey folks,
My name is Andy Dear, owner of Axis Outdoors...were a new sponsor on this board specializing in high performance epoxies and coatings for the knifemaker. Just wanted to let all of you guys know that all of my distributors now have the BladeBond product in stock and ready to ship. We have two formulas available, a Fast Curing fifteen minute resin, and a slower curing formula that is 100% waterproof. Not sure how many of you have visited my site, but the short story is that I owned a company for 11 years that specialized in product development for the fishing rod industry, specifically adhesives and coatings, for the construction of fishing rods. I started building knives last year, and thought I may have something to offer you guys in the way of a quality epoxy system with properties geared towards the knifemaker.
These resins are formulated from very high quality raw materials, and are formulated specifically for bonding dissimilar materials. They also have a specific viscocity that bridges the gap between gap filling and surface wet out. I have posted a lot of material on my website about proper surface prep as well, which obviously plays a HUGE part in proper bonding.

Bladesmith Walter Sorrels did a lot of testing on these resins prior to their release. He did a torture test which will be featured in an upcoming youtube video on a pinless micarta tactical handle, and both of our formulas came out on top beating Devcon, Loctite, J.B. Weld and others.

If any of you folks have any questions or comments about the product or epoxies in general I'll certainly do my best to answer them.

Best Regards,

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoors
www.bladebond.com

I read the info on the website....but couldn't find the answers.........Couple of questions...... Whats the shelf life? What's the hold life? Also, what type of viscosity are we looking at with this product?

I don't mind saying that I am an acraglass user, but am always interested if something "better" comes down the pike.

Many Thanks!

Interesting read Andy. I'm looking forward to hearing from some makers as to their opinion of your product.

Andy, The question Ed asked about bond life is VERY interesting to most of us. Can you comment on bond like with this epoxy? How long before we can expect the handles to loosen up?

can you comment on epoxy bond like in general?

Ken H>

Evening gents,
Thanks so much for the questions! Regarding MIXED viscosity, for the ULTRA formulation your looking at around 9,500 centipoise, which is ever so slightly thinner than Honey which is normally about 10,000cps. The Edge 15 formula is slightly thicker and comes in around 11,000cps, which is ever so slightly thicker than Honey. We felt these viscosities gave the best combination of any sort of minor gap filling that may need to take place, along with minimization of "squeezeout" when the parts are clamped together. Additionally, both formulas have very effective wetting properties, so they will bond many different dissimilar materials.
Regarding shelf life, our formulations use what is called a reactive diluent (instead of a solvent) to achieve viscosity and user friendly measure/mix ratios. Reactive diluents don't flash off like a solvent would, they actually become part of the cured coating itself. What this means for the user is that our formulations have an unlimited shelf life. I do not believe in formulating product that goes bad in 12-18 months, thats thievery I think. Having said that, a lot of folks who live in colder climates will experience the crystallization of the Part A Resin with just about any common resin formulation. This does NOT mean it has gone bad, and is a very common phenomenon. All you gotta do is pop it in the microwave and heat it in 10 second intervals until it liquefies again...voila, good as new. Additionally, many folks think that as the hardener discolors over time this means some kind of degradation to the mechanical and structural properties of the cured coating. Again speaking for my product this is simply not true. When we were formulating water clear casting resins for fishing rod guide wrap coatings I had guys that were using epoxy that was many years old, and the hardener had turned yellow...even tea colored brown, and it cured and performed as if it were brand new. Polyamine hardeners simply put are subject to discoloration from both light AND heat and contact with oxygen. In fact you can put a bottle of water clear polyamine hardener in a dark closet and it will still turn yellow with age. This does NOT indicate any sort of degradation with the product, its just an artifact of the chemistry itself.
As for the question of bond life, this is really not possible to answer, because so much of it depends on how the maker prepped the surface, what materials (substrates) are being bonded together, what stresses the substrates are put under (shear, peel, compression tension etc...) and how the end user treats his knife. If you prep the surface(s) correctly and are bonding wood, or laminate (micarta, G10 etc..) to sand blasted steel, and the user doesn't abuse the knife....you can bury it with you in the coffin. If you don't prep the surface properly, and the user batons the crap out of it with a sledge hammer...maybe about a week..LOL. Honestly so much of getting a quality structural bond is ALL ABOUT SURFACE PREP, and knowing the limitations of your epoxy. For example Edge 15 is not for use in constant submersion under water. Mercaptin based hardeners are NOT waterproof....only water resistant. So if your building a dive knife you'd want to use the Ultra formula which is 100% waterproof.
Honestly, there is so much misinformation out there its crazy. If you read the section on my site about surface energy and the "water break free" surface condition, you'll literally be light years ahead of most everyone who has ever mixed a resin and a hardener together.

Best Regards,

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com

Thanks for such a good response Andy - when we talk about "bond life", the question is how long before there is a chemical breakdown of the bond. We're "assuming" good surface prep - solely how long before the epoxy itself starts to break down for YOUR epoxy - and really for any real epoxy. Is there a limited chemical life for the cured epoxy bond?

I think you hinted at the answer with your statement "you can bury it with you in the coffin" indicating the chemical bond simply doesn't break down?

As soon as Boss gets in stock, looks like I'll be trying some.

Ken H>

Hi Ken,

My pleasure! The chemical bond wont break down assuming normal working conditions. You put it in an oven at 250 degrees, yes it'll break down. You subject it to excessive stress it wasn't designed to withstand yes it'll break down. You allow it to come into contact with chemicals or solvents it wont withstand yes it'll breakdown. My chemist can formulate epoxies that will withstand high heat, extreme stress, and aggressive solvents, but since knives are not normally subjected to those sorts of things there's simply no need for overkill just for the sake of overkill...and besides resins like that are really freakin' expensive...lol. And they're REALLY not user friendly at all...they usually necessitate odd mix ratios that require a precise scale for measurement, and usually some sort of post cure cycle in an oven to maximize cross linking. Just like anything its a balancing act to make it user friendly for the non professional to use and yet maximize the performance as much as possible. Our formulas do ALL the crosslinking they're going to do at room temperature, so there is no post cure heat cycle necessary to maximize performance. Theyre both a 1:1 mix for ease of measuring and mixing, and they both have a slight built in margin for error in measuring. As an aside, for a long time (30 years actually) in the fishing rod business EVERYONE was using an epoxy "marketed" for fishing rods, that was actually an interior grade pourable bar top coating. There were several versions of this made by Envirotex, Epoxy Coatings Co. etc... they were all casting resins made for interior "craft" type use. They were never meant for extreme flexural stress or the heat and UV demands a fishing rod is subjected to, especially in the Big Game/Offshore segment of the sport. When we developed ThreadMaster, it was a total game changer, because it was tough AND flexible. It was clear AND stayed that way due to the UV inhibitor we built into it. I have fishing rods I built 10 years ago with ThreadMaster where the guide wraps still look REALLY good, if not almost brand new, that have seen a TON of big gulf coast redfish and tropical elements. Of course a fishing rod is subjected to far more extreme stress than a knife is in most cases, but the point is, pick the right resin for the job, and you'll have the "tool" for a very long time if not forever.

I believe Tracy's shipment arrived today, so he should be ready to start shipping pretty quickly. Honestly, the other reason i wanted to do this is because I felt it was important to provide the knife makers an adhesive where some of the $$$ went back into the craft. You know.....supporting forums with sponsorship dollars and providing the vendors with free marketing materials etc.... I thought it was unfair to the knife making community that there wasn't an epoxy supplier out there that "gave back" to the craft. In fact I was shocked that most everyone was using Devcon, Loctite, J.B. Weld and the like. West Systems makes a good product, but it can be pricey, and looking at the spec sheet, I think we have a better product. Additionally I have never seen West, Devcon, Loctite or any of the other Big Box store brands purchase a forum sponsorship, or interact with the folks involved in the craft on a forum to help them learn about using the product properly. It was important for me to give back a little something to the craft that has given me a lot of enjoyment the short time I have been involved in it.

Best Regards,

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoors
www.bladebond.com

G Flex is my current epoxy for my Culinary knives. I've been extremely happy. I thank you for focusing on knives directly and chatting with us. I will give your's a look when Bossdog has it listed.

Thanks for the answers Andy! I might give it a test run, but based on the answers I suspect this product will not be for me. The majority of what I produce are hidden tang knives, and I suspect the viscocity is going to be too thick to be "pourable".

The questions about shelf life and hold life are of the utmost importance to many knifemakers. Without getting long winded, some experiences in my knifemaking career have caused me be very picky about the adhesives I use.

Is anybody going to be selling this product at the Blade Show?

Hi Laurence,
You're very welcome! G Flex is a great formula, and all of the West products are certainly of a high quality. My feelings wouldn't be a bit hurt if you chose to stay with West G Flex. My immediate goal is to get the guys away from the big box store adhesives like Devcon, Loctite, Gorilla Epoxy, J.B. Weld etc...Those resins are formulated to hit a price point, and don't belong on a quality hand crafted piece of gear...knife, fishing rod, golf club or anything else.

Best Regards,

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com

Hi Ed,
It actually is VERY pourable...about like honey. But if you need it to be thinner, all you have to do is warm the unmixed parts in the microwave for about 8 seconds. Don't get them HOT...just warm. If the bottles are so hot you cant hold them in your hand, that's much too hot. What you want is just a gentle warmth thats comfortable to hold in the palm of your hand. An even better trick is to mix the 2 parts together, then pour the mixture out on a flat piece of aluminum foil and run a heat gun over it intermittently for a few seconds at a time. Not only will this thin the mixture, but it will release any bubbles in the finish that can and most certainly do effect the physical properties. You'll be AMAZED at how much air gets trapped during mixing. One of the things to remember when working with most any epoxy is that they respond REALLY well to heat. The user has a tremendous amount of control over viscosity, pot life and cure cycle with the application of gentle heat. Epoxies cure through an exothermic reaction (they give off heat as they cure), so by applying heat you can speed up the cure and/or thin the viscosity, by removing heat you can extend the cure cycle and/or potlife and thicken up the viscosity. A little trick for extending the potlife without actually adding heat is to pour the mixed epoxy out on a flat surface. I like a piece of aluminum foil cleaned with denatured alcohol. What this does is allow the epoxy to spread out into a very thin layer so that the exotherm is not contained like it would be in a mixing cup. I have seen cheap epoxies left in a mixing cup literally boil over when the exotherm kicks into gear because the cup acted as a small oven and partially contained the heat...its a real mess and stinks terribly...lol. With BladeBond Ultra, if you build yourself a little curing oven out of a box and a hair dryer, get the temp to about 125 degrees you can "force" the bond to a full cure in about an hour and a half. This actually works with most common epoxy formulations, but the forced cure time will vary.

Back in the 90's there was a fishing rod guide wrap finish called "Crystal Coat" that was some kind of repackaged 2 part casting resin. It was really thin...about like warm varnish and had an excruciatingly long pot life and cure cycle. A bunch of us rodbuilders figured out that you could mix up a batch of Crystal Coat, apply the first coat to the wraps, then put it in the fridge and it would stay liquid for at least 24 hours. You could then apply a second coat the next day without having to mix up a new batch. It was a great way to save money and not waste epoxy. Problem was it was actually a TERRIBLE guide wrap finish in terms of clarity. Looking back it was a darn good thing I was not married at the time. I could NEVER get away with sticking uncured epoxy in the fridge these days. Mywife would come "un-glued"...sorry couldn't resist.

Best Regards,

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com

Sorry to be late here. I'm out on a camping weekend and no internet. Sitting in a little grocery store parking lot on my iPad to do this.
i will have this listed Tuesday when I get back and will bring a bunch to the blade show for out booth.

I'll grab some at the Blade Show and give it a try. From what I saw, it appears that it comes in a 4oz kit? If its something I like, I'd be looking for much larger bottles. Currently I buy acraglass in 28oz bottles, but from what I found Bladebond is right at $13 for 4oz...... that would make it $91 for 28oz., versus the $54 I pay for acraglass. Not trying to be snobbisy, but for that difference its characteristics would have to far out shine Acraglass. From the lack of any answer, can I assume that "hold life" for this product is unknown?

Hi Ed, can you elaborate on "hold life" ? In 15 years in the resin business I've never heard anyone use this term. In fact I did a google search for it, and the only result that came up was related to your name in an older post on a forum. If your referring to its usable life in a bonded structure, I alluded to that in my previous post. I'll be happy to present the question to my chemical engineer on Tuesday to get you a definitive answer.

Regarding price, generally speaking the larger the quantities you purchase the price comes down accordingly. However, I make no apologies for the pricing structure of my resin. It's a boutique product with premium raw materials.

Best Regards,

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com

By "hold life", I think Ed is referring to the chemical bond life of the epoxy - how long before time will cause the chemical bond to start loosing strength? Does the epoxy chemical bond break down with time? Nothing to do with excessive stress or heat, but solely on time related chemical breakdown of the bond. Are you aware of any epoxies that tend to break down with time?

Ed - did I define your question of "hold life" correctly?

Ken H>

I'm assuming were talking about a a PERFECT measure and mix (which is physically and realistically unobtainable), and the product basically remaining unused in a "vacuum" where its exposed to no environmental and physical stresses....in other words a "perfect world" scenario? You're wanting to know basically "left to its own devices with no external influence, how much if any breakdown happens in the cured product and over what time period does this occur"?

I will present this to the engineer on Tuesday for a definitive answer. Should be interesting, and thanks for presenting the question!


Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com

You're right Andy - there is the idea of a "perfect world" which we all know does not exist except in a theoretical mind. But, there is also the world we live in where the mix is close, and conditions are fairly normal in the 0ºF to 125ºF range (no sun drenched dashboard).

Thanks for taking an interest in this question.

Ken H>

Ed,
Just out of curiosity, I'm looking at the Brownells website and it's showing the 28oz. of Acraglas resin for $51.00 and 7oz. of Hardener for $25.00....is this the pricing structure you're referring to? retail on our quart kit will probably be somewhere in the $50.00 range, and that will include BOTH resin and hardener. I just need to run the numbers and see what packaging will cost.

Also, do you have a tech data sheet showing the physical properties of Acraglas? I always find it interesting doing compare and contrasts on these things!

By the way I took a peek at your site, and read your Bio....sincere thanks for your service in the Military man...it's VERY much appreciated!

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com

Andy,

I will tell you the story, so you know where I'm coming from.

Early in my knifemaking career, I used the common brands of "epoxy" sold at the hardware and big box stores. At about the 5-6 year pont in my knifemaking I got a rash of clients complaining about how the handles on their knives were "loosening" or "getting loose", which continued over a period of 2-3 years. I repaired all of those knives, which took a great deal of time, effort, and $$$.

Everything pointed to failure of the "epoxy". Long story short, through a lot of research, I spoke with a number of differnt "enineers" at various companies, and without exception was told that the by design, the components in "epoxy" are chemically engineered to "break down" after a given period of time. One gentleman/Chemist specifically told me... "My job depends on people buying epoxy...if I engineered an epoxy that lasted forever, I'd be out of a job". What I learned was that, when mixed, specific "elements" in each component of epxoy are designed to slowly, chemically break down at approx. the 5-7 year point.

At first I thought how insane that sounded, but lookng at it from the perspective of repeat sales being necessary for business longevity, it made/makes sense, and really is no different then the built in obsolescence we see in almost every manufactured product these days. However, it creates a pitfall for those of us who are end users, and who's business and reputation depends on the quality and longevity of our product(s). I certainly did not/do not want a repeat of that painful experience of knife handles loosening, or "falling off" over time.

With all that I had learned in mind, I started looking, and paying very close attention to shelf life, and hold life when dealing with adhesives for use in the knife shop. I also spent a great deal of time talking with "tech" folks, and asking very pointed questions. This all took place over the space of 2-3 years. Hence, the question about hold life. For the last 12 years, I have used nothing but Acraglass for my knifemaking, and time has proven that it dosen't "break down" as most others do. Although there's no way for me to physically prove the 50 year hold life claim, since I started using it, I've not had a single complaint of a knfe hande becoming "loose". So thats why the hold life is so important to me.

Currently, the only two adhesives I will recommend to any knifemaker are Brownells Acraglass, which has a 10 year shelf life, and a guaranteed 50 year hold life. Second in line is West Systems Marine, which has a 5 year shelf life, and a guaranteed hold life of 30 years.

I guess that got a little more long winded then I intended, but hopefully it helps to understand why I am so hung up on the question of hold life. I suspect some might think I'm crazy, and that it doesn't matter, but we all come at things through the lens of our own experiences, and I will not take the chance of repeating the experiece I had when I assumed that "epoxy" would last forever. Its not about brand loyalty, its about making sure my knives are the best, longest lasting product I can offer. I've often said that "right now there isn't a better adhesive for knifemaking then Acraglass, but that doesn't mean one won't be available in the future". When I saw the Bladebond, I thought it might be something to trump Acraglass, which is why I asked all the questions.

**I posted this before reading where you looked up the Acraglass..... I purchase the "shop kit" which includes 28oz resin/7oz hardener....for $54. I don't have a data sheet in the shop, but they send me one with each order, so I'll try to remember to hang onto one for you. I've found the "tech" folks at Brownells very forthcoming with info, so I would suggest giving them a call.

Many Thanks!

Ed,
I suppose it depends on what market the engineers were serving. Let me ask you this; Can you imagine if a company sold an epoxy to someone building a boat/yacht...or even worse an aircraft or some sort of military application, and was told they'd need to rebuild it 5 years because the joints could potentially fail? There's a big difference between resins designed to glue a coffee cup handle back on, and one that's designed to hold a structure together where someones life is in the balance. Your experience with handles coming loose is PRECISELY why I introduced BladeBond. From the research I did, the majority of hobbyist in the knife community are STILL using Loctite and Devcon, which is just a complete waste of money IMO, and your experience mirrors that. Most of the guys I spoke with had never even heard of G-Flex much less used it. And most will never bother with Acraglas because of the odd measuring ratio.

I will say this...its very telling that both of the resins you recommend actually have a "shelf life" where at some point they are no longer usable....mine does not. Store it at room temp, and you could mix up a batch in 10 years and it will still cure perfectly...the hardener might be a little more brown than it was when you purchased it, but it will cure and perform perfectly exactly as the day it came out of the lab.

Best Regards,

Andy Dear
Axis Outdoor Products
www.bladebond.com