Fat Belly Bowie Handle Job WIP

I have a task of completing a pair of knives that were started by a fellows dad before he passed away.
My thoughts were to share my project and get pointers of how to improve handle fit and finish. I know they are to be flattened on the side that mates up to the blade and trimmed to the profile I want them to be.



I have been asked to finish a pair of Bowies, I was told they were fat bellied skinners by the owner of them.
Is an unknown steel just old sawmill saw blades hand filed into knives.
These are going to be the knives for his kids to have for black powder ronnevous so no shiney flashey looking knife. Just smoothed clean and nice looking. So if any of you elders of this trade could lend a tip to tarnish the brass back up after I smooth the gouges from the file marks I would appreciate it


The plan is simple the handles are a bit of the new with the old. They are micarta that was acqured from the sawmill. Hence the angled edges I believe



The plan is to fit, scuff and check everything before epoxying them on. Then contour and texture for a better grip when wet.


Decided this was the stopping point for today one scales wide and the other is too close due to vice being a fuzz loose.
The plan is to epoxy and peen the scales in place.
Reading and learning the holes for the pins are a size larger halfway through scales to allow expansion of pin during peening.
Currently I only have brass rod so will be a fun learning process.


This is where I called it a night, fit and pins cut. Tomorrow or sat is a new day and a better ooooohhhmmmmmmmmm moment.

Looks like a good start, I'll be watching the progress.

looking good, thanks for sharing.

Tomorrow is the next day for working on this. Sat is my day off and my day to get sheet done.

If you want these for Black powder enactors I wouldn't use Micarta, Wood, stag or Bone would have been on 1820's fur trade blades.

Birch Casey makes a product called Brass Black, I'm sure you can guess what it does.

True rhino but the fact of him just wanting it done CHEAP is the factor. I have elk antler and assorted woods. He wasn't too worried over the era specific or the scratches on the blade or brass. I just want to get the brass tarnished a bit with out destrying it. I would love to make one of these one day and use elk antler scales.

Keep the pics coming Walt, can't wait to the finished product!

Wayne

Will do Wayne.

This will turn the brass black, http://www.amazon.com/Birchwood-Casey-Brass-Black-Metal/dp/B002JCZVOW or if you hunt with black powder, a slurry made of black powder and solvent painted over brass will do pretty much the same!

If the re-inactors are true to heart as most are, ........ they won't make it thru the first meeting with those hanging on their side.

No reflection on you or your work Walt, it is just most re-inactors are hard core and if your gear is not period correct as well as historically correct, they will laugh them right out of camp!!

I do understand you are trying to do what the customer wants. Sometimes you have to school the customer and sometimes they just want CHEAP!:biggrin:

As for period correct they will be no where close, as suggested wood or bone, and antler, no brass guards and no brass pins.Brass just wasn't used back then, even a lot of the Sheffield Bowies did not have brass guard or pins, especially those that were early 1800's. From the late 1800's - early 1900's that is where you begin to see more brass begin to come in to play. Most people have the Hollywood version of a knife from that time period. when in reality the knife back then was often very plain and resembled a butcher knife if it wasn't the family butcher knife! Back in the day money was a premium and even though a knife was essential it would have been looked at more as tool back then and why buy another tool if you could grab the knife you cut your meat with, stick it in a leather/rawhide sheath and put it under your sash/belt and be gone all day withit, (doing what the day's rigor's required) and cut your meat again that night when you stopped to eat!

I do a lot of period work and sometimes you have to take a few liberties as I like to say, cause an ugly knife is hard to sell but even ugly, usually ain't cheap!

To do period work requires a lot of research and it is the small things that really set a piece off as being correct!

I have only attempted bead work for sheaths one time and I know this much if it is done and done correctly, it takes hours of painstaking work. It is something that is absolutely beautiful when done correctly but after my one attempt, I will tell a customer if they want a bead sheath they need to get someone else to make it. There is no money in it for me and very little love, except for the finished product done by someone better than me, leather/rawhide I can do but beaded sheaths..............!

Good luck with your project Walt and I will be keeping an eye out for updates on your progress.

Walt, you're pretty kind to take over a project that someone else started. I'm sure the fact that their dad had it planned out and started takes a little pressure off of you as far as material choices. Hey, if it's wrong, that's what "Dad" was going to use, so its on him. I can't stand taking over project someone has started, cars, remodeling, etc. Maybe it'll be worth the headache to give someone something to remember their Dad by, good luck.

C Craft I accidentally misrepresented the black powder part of the project. Its not meant to be exactly era specific just simple. I just want to get the dull rarnish back on the brass but think itll just be shiney. Lol The options were the micarta he sent with or bright green uhmw. I opted for micarta due to the pain in the ... uhmw is to sand and shape. The knives are for his kids.
Anthony I am a bit odd like that can take over half done projects and make them work and look good. Is my daily job. Lol

C Craft said:

As for period correct they will be no where close, as suggested wood or bone, and antler, no brass guards and no brass pins.Brass just wasn't used back then, even a lot of the Sheffield Bowies did not have brass guard or pins, especially those that were early 1800's. From the late 1800's - early 1900's that is where you begin to see more brass begin to come in to play.

Click to expand...

Brass was widely used in the early to mid 1800s, in "The Antique Bowie Knife Book" by Bill Adams, J. Bruce Voyles, Terry Moss copy right 1990, I went through approx. 50 american made knives dating from early to mid century and found at least 11 knives with brass guards, pins ,pommels, and tip and throat sheaths.

This quote from page 121,
" Handle materials are more diverse. Various hardwoods- walnut, maple, hickory, ash, and others-are most frequently found. The other very common substance is deer antler, which makes an exceptionally attractive grip. Also seen occasionaly are bone leather and cattle horn.
Mounts- that is guards, ferrules, pins, pommel plates, and caps- are almost always of iron or brass, but once in a while a bit of silver, German silver, or copper is seen as are cast-tin and pewter."

respectfully
Mark

Lookin good Walt! Keep those pics coming!

Mark not trying to get into a argument with you at all. The limited use of brass is information I have read about as well.

There is another maker that I consider my adopted mentor! I will put his knowledge of history and knife history up against any encyclopedia or nearly any reference material for that matter. He can quote dates and times and back it up in writing if need be, the 17th, 18th, and early 19thcentury. He is the one that schooled me in the use of brass. Yes it was done just not a lot especially in the early 1800's in America. I just went back and re-read my post and yes I did say,

"no brass guards and no brass pins. Brass just wasn't used back then, even a lot of the Sheffield Bowies did not have brass guard or pins, especially those that were early 1800's"

What I meant to say was, "Brass just wasn't used much (meaning limited use) back then, even a lot (meaning some of) of the Sheffield Bowies did not have brass guard or pins, especially those that were early 1800's"!

Sometimes it would pay me to re-read my posts before I post them!:biggrin:

If you disagree that is your prerogative!

C Craft,
Not meaning to get into an argument ether but what the heck would they have used for pins & guards back in those days? There was white & yellow brass and um? No stainless loveless bolts, corby's or fiber board dowels ether back then. Exopyies weren't that stung and a mechanical connection for scaled knives was needed.
I doubt that steel was used for pins and guards so what's left?

My research shows the pins were mostly steel. A big majority of knives back then did not use a guard.

Here is what was commonly called a trade knife back then, these are from Old Dominion Forge they were used by many nationalities in trade with the Indians in the fur trade. The difference in blade shape, handle material and few other differences, is what denote who the nation was that was supplying them for trade back then.

These pictured are pretty much true to form. No guard and steel pins. Guards would have been mostly steel, if the knife had one.

True as soon as the Bowie knife was born in America, Sheffield wanted in on the money being made in America over the story surrounding the Bowie knife fight and they began to import many knives to America. Here is a link from Wikepida about Sheffield, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sheffield

See what most folks don't under stand that America as we know it today did not exist. You had the states on the east coast and most of the rest of America was territories. Trade moved West and the big jumping off point was St. Louis, here is a link to the history and the westward expansion as seen thru St. Louis Missouri, http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-Midwest/St-Louis-History.html

Knives were primarily tools of the trade. Often like I said it was bring what you got! Folks looks at old pictures from way back and say see their is a knife like that. Remember back in the early days of photography the subject/s had to stand still for a long period of time. A lot of what shows up in photos involving trappers, traders and some American Indian photos were props brought by the photographer to take the pic.

There would have been use of brass on the east coast but as it moved westward much slower. Hollywood would have everyone to believe that every blacksmith in every settlement and those that moved westward did nothing but manufacture knives. When in reality most of them were to busy in the every day tasks of repairing what was moving westward at the time or what had made it that far and their was no way to get parts for it. It was kind of like, can you fix this! The bigger majority of knives back then were trade knives used to trade with the Indians and research will support that the backers of the expeditions going forth to supply the Fur traders, trappers and such were ordered to be cheap with no frills! Another thing that supports this is the old blades that have been dug up, if they had brass guards and pins they would still more than likely exist. They would be corroded but they don't rot away like steel in the ground. Most blades dug up are only the blade with pin holes but no pins, and no guards. I have a book with pics but at present my scanner doesn't work so got no way to post pics.

This is a link to the knives of the man I spoke of with knowledge of this time period and his knives are some of the most true copies of that time period bar none that you will find. http://www.wickellerbe.com/ You will see that few of the knives have brass pins or brass guards.

This is beginning to overtake the original thread by Walt My original intention was only to advise Walt, not start a discussion on history correct!

So if you want to continue the discussion we should move it to a new thread! Give me a yell and I will try and start a new thread if that is wanted!! Truth and Hollywood do not always run hand in hand!!

This is what happens when some one makes one small error in typing. (Note to self dont do it again. Lol)

Walt I apologize as there was no intention to hijack this thread! Re-in actors are a bunch that want things history correct, and I know you said that was a typo. So guys if you want to continue this discussion let me know and I will try and move it too a more appropriate place!

Lets let Walt have his thread back!

Cliff - good info and I for one do not object at all to the direction the thread took, but I am NOT the OP - that's Walt. I enjoy reading all the knowledge all ya'll folks share.

Ken H>

No harm done Cliff. It was a welcomed history lesson from two different points of view. Its all part of the world we are in.
I also have come to the conclusion that a rasp and a vice wil beat a wore out sanding belt.