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HHH Knives
04-24-2010, 09:53 AM
Hello, Im making a fillet blade from O1 steel, its a 9 inch blade..
I have a few questions and am hoping one or two of you dogs can guide me through it.

Whats the best way to harden and the temper out a fillet blade without warping it? Or whats the proper way to do it.

I have done one today, had it ground and all cleaned up. Took it up to non magnetic and quenched it in water. The results were not what I had hoped and the blade halfway down the spine warped badly..

Should I normalize the steel B4 grinding, or after, or not necessary?

Any and all help or advise would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Calvin Robinson
04-24-2010, 10:13 AM
Quench O-1 in oil not water, heat treat it first then grind the bevels. I quench O-1 in automatic transmission fluid, I heat it to 125 deg first.

HHH Knives
04-24-2010, 10:23 AM
Calvin, Thanks for the advise, I will use oil on the next one, Am I understanding right, that I should heat treat, or normalize, then grind, then harden, then temper? If so, Then I think I got it.. What temp do you temper O1 and how many times?
THANKS AGAIN!

Bennie Lovejoy
04-24-2010, 10:36 AM
First of all,I'm still very new to this, but I did use o1 once and the knife turned out good.For one O1 is an oil hardening steel. So water is a no-no. I personally use warm canola oil( about 130 degrees) and quench the full length of the knife at one time then 2 heats in the oven(tempering) at 450 degrees for one hour. (Let knife cool to room temp between oven cycles). You should also know that the knife should be heated to between 1450 and 1500 degrees and I held mine for a few minutes and then quenched.
I cant comment on whether you should normalize before grinding as I didnt do that to mine. Hopefully the more experienced makers will chime in. Good luck.

Bennie

Calvin Robinson
04-24-2010, 10:47 AM
I'm at the house, the shop is a mile away and it's raining, thats where all my heat treat info is but I'll try to remember so I can answer your questions.
What I mean is to profile your knife blade first then heat treat it ( harded and temper) then grind your bevels. Doing it this way the blade is less likeley to warp because the blade has not been groung thin yet. If you are starting with thin stock, say 1/16" you may want to clamp the blade between two thicker pieces of mild steel then heat and quench in 125 deg. atf. I think I bring the O-1 to 1500 deg. hold it for 20 min. then quench the two tempering cycles of 2 hrs. each at 350 deg.I use a computer controlled kiln and toaster oven. I have done it with an oxygen and acetylene torch the way you are trying and it will harden somewhat but a computer controlled kiln is best so you can be sure of your temps. and time cycles. When grinding bevels after heat treating be sure and not overheat the cutting edge or you will ruin the temper. I hope this helps.

HHH Knives
04-24-2010, 10:52 AM
Benny, Thanks bro, Great info..
Im sure quenching it with water was the main problem.. Shame, I didnt ask sooner, or research more B4 attempting it.. Although I learn from every failed attempt. So Im chalking it up to a learning experience.

I appreciate the help! Bennie!

silver_pilate
04-24-2010, 10:58 AM
As long as you're not doing a super thin fillet or really long blade, I have no troubles hardening after grinding my bevels. I take the bevels down to 1/32" on the edge before quenching. As long as you grind evenly, it shouldn't be a problem.

Heat treating O1: bring it up to 1450-1500F (that's going to be above non-magnetic, which happens at 1414F). Hold it there for 15-20 minutes. If you don't have any way to accurately judge temperature or hold it at temperature without overheating, a simpler steel like 1084 would be best. You can get it to harden some with a shorter hold of a couple of minutes, but you won't get the best from it by any means. With O1, you can quench in something like canola oil. Temper at 400F (350F is going to be on the low side and may get you some chippiness in your edge...then again, without a proper soak at temp, 350 may work). Do 2 x 2hour tempers as suggested with a cool to room temp between them.

The most common problems in doing an elementary heat treat with O1 is the inability to judge or hold temperature. If you don't get it hot enough, it's not going to harden. If you get it too hot, youre going to have a brittle blade because of grain growth. Temperature control and time at temperature are the keys to a successful heat treat of any steel. Be careful not to overheat the edge and tip if you are using an uncontrolled forge. Move the blade in and out of the forge until you get an even color and bring this up past non-magentic. Watch the color and see if you can find the spot where the color suddenly brightens up a bit and becomes more lively. That is right on the lines of critical and where you should hold it.

Calvin, 1900F is more along the lines of very high alloys like D2 or stainles steels and will cause big problems with other steels. I'm sure you just had the wrong number in mind. :D

--nathan

HHH Knives
04-24-2010, 11:01 AM
I'm at the house, the shop is a mile away and it's raining, thats where all my heat treat info is but I'll try to remember so I can answer your questions.
What I mean is to profile your knife blade first then heat treat it ( harded and temper) then grind your bevels. Doing it this way the blade is less likeley to warp because the blade has not been groung thin yet. If you are starting with thin stock, say 1/16" you may want to clamp the blade between two thicker pieces of mild steel then heat and quench in 125 deg. atf. I think I bring the O-1 to 1500 deg. hold it for 20 min. then quench the two tempering cycles of 2 hrs. each at 350 deg.I use a computer controlled kiln and toaster oven. I have done it with an oxygen and acetylene torch the way you are trying and it will harden somewhat but a computer controlled kiln is best so you can be sure of your temps. and time cycles. When grinding bevels after heat treating be sure and not overheat the cutting edge or you will ruin the temper. I hope this helps.

Thats perfect, I am using a forge to heat treat it, then a toaster oven. So sandwiching the blade is perfect. One day I will get a computer controlled kiln. I have my eye on a large one thats in the basement at my mother in laws. Se used it for pottery original and smelting metal for jewelry. Should be almost perfect.. I think?
Anyways, Thank you for the help and guidance. Its much appreciated..

silver_pilate
04-24-2010, 11:04 AM
Here's a page from my website that you might find useful when heat treating. Just a collection of datasheets that can come in handy:

http://www.burgessknives.com/34601.html

--nathan

HHH Knives
04-24-2010, 11:06 AM
Nate, Thanks for the advice, I can get it to temp and hold it for 20.. thats not a problem.
Im doing a bit of guess work as im doing it in a gas forge. but I can get it there..

You Guys are the best. Thank you for all the help.. and sound advise..

HHH Knives
04-24-2010, 11:10 AM
This is without a doubt the BEST site on the net.. I know Im going of subject a bit.. But where else can a guy like me post a question and in 10 minutes have 2 pros helping and giving advise?? Ill tell ya where.. NOWHERE!

Knife DOGS are the best DOGS!

Thanks for the link Nathan, Saved it and will refer to it often!

SBuzek
04-24-2010, 11:52 AM
Randy
Since you are Heating in a forge,make yourself a muffle,Get a piece of pipe,heat one end of it and mash it closed,then insert the pipe into your forge and bring it up to heat,put your blade inside the pipe it will help control your temp and you will get less scale and more even heating.
Stan

Pelallito
04-24-2010, 03:41 PM
Randy,
Make sure that it is NOT galvanized pipe that you use for the muzzle, especially if you are indoors. Burning galvanize gas can be very dangerous to your and your families health.
Fred

HHH Knives
04-24-2010, 07:33 PM
yea!

Im happy to report, The new blade went through the heat cycle and the oil quench and both tempers!

Pics as soon as the knife is complete.. ;)

Many thanks to all you guys for the help!!!

God bless,

HHH Knives
04-27-2010, 07:44 AM
Here it is! After some help from the dog pound! I was able to make it.. Thanks so much guys, I promised pics and here they are!

Specs..
O1 steel, OAL aprox 14 inches blade aprox 9 inches
Stabilized and died teal, Sycamore lace handle with mosaic pins by JAKE.

Again Thanks for the advice and help.

God bless YA!

D.Douglas
04-27-2010, 07:56 AM
Hey Randy, Looks great! Better send it down and let me field test it on a slab crappie.

DLBrothers
04-27-2010, 10:33 AM
good looking fillet knife. How flexible is the blade? I have used a bunch of 01 and would not normally think of it as the "best" choice for a flexible tool....but I could be wrong.

Original
04-27-2010, 10:34 AM
Doug, you can send that beauty to me to try on some king salmon and halibut.....

Randy, that is one primo looking filet knife, love the profile and the sycamore, I thought it was micarta, would like to get some of that.

HHH Knives
04-27-2010, 10:58 AM
How flexible is the blade? I have used a bunch of 01 and would not normally think of it as the "best" choice for a flexible tool....but I could be wrong.

The blade is flat ground and I tested it to about 50 to 60* of flex. Its got good spring back and flex..

This is the second blade I made. The first I didnt heat treat properly and when I tested it, It was to way to stiff and snapped right in two at about 45* LOL Then I can to the Dog Pound and was advised to the best ways to work this steel!

All that being said, Its got great flex yet its stout. and will make a great working tool/fillet knife! I liked it so much Im starting a smaller version of the same basic design for my self..

On a side note, O1 is not very rust resistant. so proper care must be taken..


Thanks to all for the help and the kind comments..

God bless

whiteeugene
04-27-2010, 02:36 PM
The blade is flat ground and I tested it to about 50 to 60* of flex. Its got good spring back and flex..

This is the second blade I made. The first I didnt heat treat properly and when I tested it, It was to way to stiff and snapped right in two at about 45* LOL Then I can to the Dog Pound and was advised to the best ways to work this steel!

All that being said, Its got great flex yet its stout. and will make a great working tool/fillet knife! I liked it so much Im starting a smaller version of the same basic design for my self..

On a side note, O1 is not very rust resistant. so proper care must be taken..


Thanks to all for the help and the kind comments..

God bless
That came out great can I ask what heat treating method you used I have some 01 and was thinking about using a forge to heat treat.

Denny Eller
04-27-2010, 03:17 PM
Randy that's a great looking filet knife. If the heat treating and tempering was right on you should be able to filet a boatload of fish without re-sharpening.

HHH Knives
04-27-2010, 04:13 PM
That came out great can I ask what heat treating method you used I have some 01 and was thinking about using a forge to heat treat.

Thanks, I used my forge and a baffle, a piece of 2 1/2 inch pipe and smashed one end down. Heated it up and then introduced the steel to the pipe! Slowly bringing it up to temp and watching for hot spots!

Then just let it soak for 20 minutes, hardened and tempered it like they said.. Heres a copy of a post and its basically what I followed!

Heat treating O1: bring it up to 1450-1500F (that's going to be above non-magnetic, which happens at 1414F). Hold it there for 15-20 minutes. If you don't have any way to accurately judge temperature or hold it at temperature without overheating, a simpler steel like 1084 would be best. You can get it to harden some with a shorter hold of a couple of minutes, but you won't get the best from it by any means. With O1, you can quench in something like canola oil. Temper at 400F (350F is going to be on the low side and may get you some chippiness in your edge...then again, without a proper soak at temp, 350 may work). Do 2 x 2hour tempers as suggested with a cool to room temp between them."

Good luck, and thanks to all for the kind words and comments..

Doug, Im not sending to ya till I have a chance to try it out on a few small mouths! LOL

God bless

whiteeugene
04-27-2010, 07:53 PM
Thanks for the great info I have some 2 1/2 inch black pipe and a screw cap do you think this will work or do I need to pound one end closed?

Trout season opened here last weekend so the other Doug can just send it to me and I can try it out on some rainbows.

D.Douglas
04-27-2010, 08:45 PM
Between all those fish mentioned i think we would have a fair assesment on how well it handled. fish fry!!!!!

whiteeugene
04-28-2010, 07:13 AM
Between all those fish mentioned i think we would have a fair assesment on how well it handled. fish fry!!!!!

Iíll bring the tobacco burner, cast iron kettle with peanut oil and a mess of sweet potatoes sliced real thin along with some hush puppy mix and corn meal. We just need to make sure no one tries to quench any blades in the oil. 2thumbs

D.Douglas
04-28-2010, 07:29 AM
Doug, I was just thinking we could set up a forge and have an anvil handy. To bad you lived so far away. Of course after eating and drinking a six pack i probably wouldnt feel like picking a hammer up. LoL

HHH Knives
04-28-2010, 08:28 AM
Iíll bring the tobacco burner, cast iron kettle with peanut oil and a mess of sweet potatoes sliced real thin along with some hush puppy mix and corn meal. We just need to make sure no one tries to quench any blades in the oil. 2thumbs

That all sounds GOOD! I will bring some Cat Fish nuggets and do them Cajun style !! and have my wife bake up some fresh bread! Mmmm!

HHH Knives
04-28-2010, 08:42 AM
Thanks for the great info I have some 2 1/2 inch black pipe and a screw cap do you think this will work or do I need to pound one end closed?

Trout season opened here last weekend so the other Doug can just send it to me and I can try it out on some rainbows.

That pipe will work just fine! I was warned not to use galvanized or at least to ventilate will if You do.. I cooked my pipe in the forge outside for a few to let it burn off the CRAP! it did stink.. And can be harmful to your health.. So use caution.


Trout is nice! I dont often fillet them, I tend to fill up the insides with whatever veggies and some rice or both and season it up real good and wrap it in tin foil.. Then cook it right on top of the forge! quick and easy! LOL

D.Douglas
04-28-2010, 10:07 AM
Randy, Is there HHH cookbook in the future?

HHH Knives
04-29-2010, 04:38 PM
Doug, Its in the works!! Not really..

But that would be cool! HHH Forge, how to cook on the forge in 30 minuites of less.... Cook book!